DOLLAR VALUE OF LOG BOOKS, ENGINE & AIRFRAME ORIGINAL

[MoonlightVFR]

We all know that the paper trail of an airplane has some determing cost factor as to how much a buyer will pay.


I would like to know how different owners think about the actual value of their original logbooks. Five hundred dollars or five thousand dollars?

What do you think?


regards

[Jr.CubBuilder]

They go with the plane, I'm not sure why anybody would want to pay for a set of logs for a plane without the airplane attached, unless they were intent on commiting fraud by using those logs as false documentation for a different plane. In that case I would think they would want your data plate as well.

[4-Shipp]

The NAAA evaluator on TAP and the "default" settings for a '53B show a value of $33.4K. If you change the "Are the log books original?" question from yes to no, the value drops to $31.0K, or a drop of 7.2%.

Doing the same exercise but using a '53 180 Skywagon, the value drops 9.7%,

I had always heard/thought logs were worth 15-20% of the value.

[N2865C]

I assume you are talking about the value of a plane that is missing logbooks. If it were me buying a 170 that was worth around $42000 with logs, about $5000 depending on the condition of the plane and what I could uncover with a little detective work (and of course how badly I HAD to have that plane ) .

[tshort]

How about something like mine...
I have logs from 1953 or so (can't remember, aren't in front of me now) but not from 1948; the plane was completely disassembled, recovered and restored 2 years ago and documentation for all additions (brakes, etc) are up to date. No other missing logs.
How big a deal is this? - Not very big to me, but I wondered what others think...

Thomas

[N2865C]

I could easily live with that..... I might try to use it as bargaining tool, but I doubt it would affect the amount I was willing to pay.

[CraigH]

How about something like mine...
I have logs from 1953 or so (can't remember, aren't in front of me now) but not from 1948; the plane was completely disassembled, recovered and restored 2 years ago and documentation for all additions (brakes, etc) are up to date. No other missing logs.
How big a deal is this? - Not very big to me, but I wondered what others think...

Thomas

That wouldn't matter to me personally, but it WOULD impact how much I'd be williing to pay for the aircraft. Reason being, if I ever decided to sell it, there's a good chance it might matter to another buyer.

[GAHorn]

Despite the most convincing stories imaginable... every airplane owner has full knowlege that his airplane's logs are invaluable. Aircraft logs are never simply "lost"...unless the seller wants them to be lost.
What this means is: Without all the logs from day one... at least some of the aircraft's history is probably pure fiction. Perhaps simple fraud.
The question ( it seems to me ) isn't how much deduction one should make for the loss of info, .... as much as how much is one willing to pay someone for an airplane which you know they are lying about? If an airplane's logs are "lost".... then there's something being hidden in 99% of the cases. And it's damn unlikely that you just happened to stumble upon that other 1%.
In other words....somebody...somewhere...sometime ... has been lying about the airplane. The problem is WHAT is the lie? Is it a simple ground loop they wanted to hide? Then all we would have to do is inspect for proper repair.
But here's the danger: What if it's a deliberate attempt to change the identity of an airplane by swapping out the logs and/or dataplate? This is pure fraud. And it's possible you're dealing with stolen or othewise improperly titled property! Do you really want to invest your good money into an airplane with that burden?
(I heard someone guffaw out there.... so think some more about this.) Would you buy an airplane that a title search showed unresolved liens? How about a title search that showed an illegally executed Bill-of-Sale to a former owner? What are you gonna do when the sherriff shows up and demands the keys and takes possession of it on behalf of a legal heir to a former owner? Or a government entity (with past-due tax liens) who can show that your title is clouded and you must forfeit your $35,000 investment?
It's amazing to me that a person perceiving a "good deal" will be willing to overlook the fact they are about to sink lots of money into what is clearly (or should be clearly) fraudulent, but because it's a "good deal" they'll convince themselves it's still somehow OK. Or they'll allow a fast, smooth talker to convince them to go ahead and part with their money. Maybe they'll get away with it. But maybe not.
There are too many scenarios to list here...but Buyer Beware!

[170C]

Opinions are like ____'s everybody has one I wish I had the logs on my plane from day one. However, mine were "lost" at some time back in its California life If I were looking to buy a plane and it met my expectations, good annual by my mechanic, etc. I wouldn't pay a nickel more for it whether it had logs or not. I have seen some logs tha sure look questionable so I don't think logbooks are the final word on a plane. Its kind like having NDH. Its desireable, but if its the right plane and has had damage history AND has been properly repaired to my satisfaction and that of my AI, I would pay the same price.

[flat country pilot]

Our 170 has log books back to day one, therefore they are worth alot to me.

If I am looking to buy a plane for $35,000.

A $35,000 plane with complete log books - to me the logs are worth $500 to $5,000 depending on so many variables.

A $35,000 plane with log books that are hard to follow or read - to me the logs are worth $5,000 to $30,000.

A $35,000 plane with no log books - the logs are worth $30,000 to $35,000.

Just a thought.

Bill

[AR Dave]

If the building that your log books are in burned down tonight, would your plane at the airport be worth less tomorrow? I know someone that lost his log books to fire. Or what if the maintenance shop's office burned down during your next annual, while the logs books were inside?

[flat country pilot]

I'll try that again.

If the building that your log books are in burned down tonight, would your plane at the airport be worth less tomorrow? I know someone that lost his log books to fire. Or what if the maintenance shop's office burned down during your next annual, while the logs books were inside?

No, the airplane does not become worth less, (that’s worth less money, not worthless). But the log books become priceless, because no amount of cash will replace them. If I want to buy that plane, I want a pre buy annual done by some one I know who is very experienced.

If the maintenance shop burns down the plane becomes worthless because it is most likely inside the shop with the logs. just kidding

In my little opinion, I see an inverse relationship between complete log books and their value. The more complete and better the logs are the easier a purchase may be. Incomplete log books can raise a lot of questions about a plane and the planes value can start to decrease.

Bill

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I think it is hard to put a value on having all the original logs which is different than complete logs. After all the original logs may not be complete. We all have opinions as to what are complete logs.

I think you have to evaluate every airplanes value by all of it's attributes or lack there of. Logs and their condition are just part of the whole picture.

Aircraft logs are never simply "lost"...unless the seller wants them to be lost.

What this means is: Without all the logs from day one... at least some of the aircraft's history is probably pure fiction. If an airplane's logs are "lost".... then there's something being hidden in 99% of the cases. And it's damn unlikely that you just happened to stumble upon that other 1%.

In other words....somebody...somewhere...sometime ... has been lying about the airplane.

George, please, these statments are just over the the top. Complete legible logs from day one can hold just as many lies and fraud as you say a missing log does. Logs and log entries would be just as easy to create as they are to lose.

Ownership is NOT determined by the logs. My aircraft is missing the first four years of airframe logs. I have absolutly no concern that an owner from that time period is going to show up and demand his property.

Did I take into consideration the condition and completness of the logs of my airplane when I bought it. Sure did. I paid $28,000 for my plane 10 years. Would I have paid say $1000 more for the missing four years of logs? Hard to say but probably not. If the logs where located today would I pay $1000 for them today? While I definitly think they would be interesting reading, probably not.

[steve grewing]

The "logbooks" for my plane were lost in 1956. In those days each annual inspection was filed with the FAA, so there was some history available. I had little concern over the missing records when I purchased mine. However, I did research the planes FAA records prior to putting down any money. It had an open lien on it from the 1960's. The three "co-owners" I was to buy it from could not prove they owned it. They failed to submit the signed bill of sale they received from the previous owner to the FAA and had since lost it. Amazing! I talked to the FAA aircraft registry office in Oklahoma City about that one prior to going any further in the process. I received a list of documentation required prior to the FAA accepting a signed bill of sale from the three amigos. After gathering all the legal documents I needed, I asked the FAA about the scenario of: I pay the guys who think they own the plane and get a signed bill of sale from them. I submit all the paperwork to the FAA for filing but prior to it being filed the previous owner (the one owns it in the eyes of the FAA) shows up with the local sheriff and wants his airplane. Whose aircraft is it? "I'll have to refer you to our legal department...." was the reply.
Also, I had an AI who was familiar with the model inspect the aircraft with me. The aircraft was completely disassembled at the time.
It had been ground looped in the late '50's. The logbook stated: "repaired airplane following a landing mishap" and listed some of what was accomplished.
It took me six months to gather all the info I needed for the FAA in 1990. With public access to the internet today as it is today, I probably could do it in a month. Also, the NTSB database indicates my plane was in a "nose over" accident in the early '60's during a cross wind landing. The registered owners address was a short distance from the accident site. He was an A&P. Nothing in the logbooks about that one. The aircraft has had the same registration number from day one, so I'll give the NTSB the benefit of the doubt.
No ones logbooks are truly complete. If we all followed the letter of the law (vs the spirit of it), our logbooks would be counted by tens of pounds not book numbers.
Bottom line, logbooks are only someones opinion of what was done to an aircraft. All kinds of influences can color that opinion as it is written or not written. But the physical airplane tells its own story. Take your time, get someone who knows the aircraft model, research, investigate, get real answers to questions and then make an informed decision. Knowing what I know about my plane today, I would still buy it.
I know a guy who lost one volume of his logbooks for a KingAir. That lost book cost him $250K in parts and labor when he went to sell the plane. I know that is apples and oranges but he should have had copies.
George is correct though---"buyer beware".

Steve

[GAHorn]

...
George, please, these statments are just over the the top. ...

I don't know what that means exactly, Bruce. Were the statements strongly worded? Yes. Intentionally. If my stongly worded statements helped someone understand the importance I place on aircraft logs, then my intent was met.

Are all logbooks 100% absolutely, truthful, and accurate? Probably not. But they should be representative of the work performed on that airplane and ...here's the important part...they should NOT be a pack of lies....which "lost" logbooks virutally underline.

It's true that some logs are replete with great fiction. I'm thinking of a particluar Cessna 175 a buddy of mine bought from a retired AP/IA. After about 6 months, he and I decided to do some work on it, and the reams of Form 337's (very neatly hand-printed) and the claims made by the former owner of overhauled systems, turned out to be an entire list of fabrications. (Some of you guys may recall a story I told once about a constant speed "prop overhaul" that turned out to be a disassembly, discovery the shop had no capability to perform the work due to technical reasons, and then a reassembly with a new O-ring, and shipped it back to the IA owner, who promptly logged it back onto the plane as a "Zero" since complete overhaul. That prop was unairworthy and had been so for almost two decades due to an old AD note requireing the blade threads be truncated. A pure lie by the previous AP/IA owner. When the Feds were contacted, the old retired guy didn't even contest it, he simply mailed 'em his certificate. My buddy couldn't even recover damages because the old guy next declared bankruptcy.) A case of pure fiction in a complete set of beautiful logbooks.
But my "over the top" comments weren't about fictitous logs, ...they were about "missing/lost" logs. I stand by my opinion for good reason.
Here's the text of an actual account I experienced a few years ago and once wrote about:

While shopping for a twin, I located a Travel-Air in Calif. that seemed to fit the bill. Owned by another professional pilot who cared about maintenance and who had taken care of the bird for many years, I was confident that I'd found my dream plane. Before spending too much time and money on travel (to avoid the ever frequent junk one finds at the end of the expensive trip), I'd begun to request faxes of 1)the last annual, 2)the last engine overhaul(s), and 3)any logged damage,... before spending any money on an annual inspection. As the seller and I made final arrangements to get together to actually perform the annual inspection (which is the ONLY inspection that I accept as a "pre-buy"), we came to the question of logbooks. (Only a properly performed complete ANNUAL inspection checks an aircraft thoroughly for airworthiness. Only a properly performed complete ANNUAL inspection has a legal definition. There is no such thing as a "pre-buy" inspection and you will not be able to hold any inspector or seller's feet to the fire should you later find the new bird to be illegal. You ARE trying to buy an airplane that is AIRWORTHY, aren't you?)
It seems that all the logs weren't available, which for me, killed the deal. I was ready to hang up. BUT, he explained, there was an irrefutable explanation. The airline pilot he had bought the plane from had once owned a flight school, and the hangar burned in 1971 at "Podunk" airport, a major Ohio city, (obviously not the real name to avoid embarrassing the seller), and all the flight school records were burned up including the aircraft logs. BUT, he added,...the accountant for the school had all the business records at home working on taxes, and the logs were completely re-constructed from invoices. Besides that, the school and it's owner had owned the bird SINCE NEW, and the chief inspector of the school had been the one to perform all inspections and repairs since new, so, it was a simple matter to accurately and completely re-construct the logs. The seller stated that the first logbook entry he was in possession of, ...explained all this, and he was sure I would find everything acceptable. I told him to fax that entry to me as well. Since he had owned the airplane so many years himself, and since he was a professional pilot in charge of airworthiness of his employer's aircraft I gave him a little more leeway than I would have granted anyone else. (Besides, this little Travel-Air really, really, really appeared sweet and I was probably hoping beyond hope that it could be "mine-all-mine".)
But I've become a dubious sort, having been in this business for over 30 years, so I followed up on the story. I got very sneaky, and I called the public library in "Podunk" and asked the librarian to research a 1971 hangar fire at the airport. The next day she called me to inform me she would fax me the newspaper article about the hangar fire in hangar #2 which burned up all the local flight schools records, but the planes were safely gotten out of danger. I couldn't believe it, but it seemed to be true! Perhaps this WAS an otherwise perfect airplane for me. So, just as I was about to break my rule and buy a plane without all the logs, the librarian casually asked, "Why are you interested in that fire?" I explained, and miraculously, she said she wondered because her ex-husband was a mechanic who had worked at the flight school that burned. I couldn't believe the coincidence.
She went on to explain that he was now a professor of aviation maintenance technology at a leading tech school in St. Louis. I got his phone number from directory assistance, and called the man, simply to glean whatever other interesting memories he might have of what I was now certain was to become my new dream-plane. He and I had an interesting conversation in which he confirmed the fire, and the fact that the Travel airs had escaped damage. In fact, the school had two Travelairs, and they both had been fine aircraft. "Which one are you buying?", he asked. I told him the tail number. "Funny", he said, "You know, it's funny how time plays tricks on one's memory. I now realize I can't even remember the tail numbers of any of those planes. That one doesn't ring a bell at all." Well, I said, tail numbers can change, of course. I read him his log entry, which had seemed professional and correct.
"That doesn't sound like the way I make my sentences.", he said.
"Do you have a fax machine?", I asked. "Yes." "Then I'll fax this to you", I said.
Now, how many people would have gone this far, I ask you? And how many people would have had the good luck to actually talk to a librarian divorced from the man who made the log entry in question? Is there a God, or what?
In less than ten minutes, the man called me back and said, "That's NOT MY SIGNATURE! That's a forgery!!" It turned out that this particular airframe most likely had a data-tag riveted to it that had at one time belonged to a DIFFERENT airplane! A previous owner had apparently tried to disguise THIS airframe as one that had escaped the well-publicized hangar fire. But clearly, there was no way he could do that without destroying/"losing" the airplane's legitimate logbooks. So he destroyed those logs, created the cover story, and then sold the airplane to the current "owner" in California. (Who knows who really "owned" that airframe. The title search I had performed on that tail number/serial number was now clearly a waste of money and time.)
When I called the seller back and delivered the bad news, he nearly went orbital. His irate comment was to the effect that he was not ABOUT to lower his price! I informed him that I was not trying to induce him to lower his price. I was only informing him I was not interested in his airplane, and that perhaps he might wish to visit with the man from whom he had purchased it, Goodbye.

Just because all the logs are present does not make them totally non-fiction, to be sure. That's the reason we do an inspection prior to purchase.
But you can be certain that any airplane with "lost" logbooks is one whose major history IS POSSIBLY fictitious. It may not even "belong" to the person trying to sell it to you. It may not even be the airplane represented by what few "logs" it does possess!

What is the dollar value of logbooks? It depends on 1-If they are original, 2- If they are truthful. 3-If they actually represent the airframe they claim to depict.

It's true that logbooks are not the documents that determine ownership. BUT.... if the logbooks are fictitiously describing a particular airframe, then the REAL ownership of that airplane is in question. Drilling off a dataplate from some wreckage and installing it on YOUR airplane, does not change your ownership of the airplane. But that illegal act will likely convince someone ELSE that the diguised airplane can be legally purchased,... while YOU or your insurance company continues to look for that plane. If they discover the subterfuge, then the new "owner" will lose his investment.

Some folks believe it's OK to stick a dataplate onto a collection of parts and call it the airplane represented by that dataplate. Sometimes there are "logbooks" that are offered along with the conglomeration. Somtimes not. The fact that there are NO logs.... is probably not a case of lost logs at all. It's really a case of someone finding it easier to claim them "lost" than to have to explain what the truth is.

Over the top? Not in my opinion.