I want in the club! (read: I found one in the weeds...)

[Tools]

Hi folks,

A quick intro, I'm a former military guy, turned airline guy, who JUST got started in light civil aviation. My 18yr old son and I bought a Pietenpol together a couple months ago. Quick like a bunny rabbit I got my tail wheel endorsement, and we flew that thing 800 miles home to north Georgia. I then turned by military teaching credentials into a CFI and CFII and am teaching him to fly. We're bitten pretty hard by this flying for fun thing!

So, we need to do a quick weight and balance check on this Piet to make sure he can fly from the back seat. Quick sidenote, the kid can fully take off and land this Piet from the front seat, with NO instruments! I'm there as ballast and so he can get feeling back in his legs every couple of landings. This is a foreign concept to me. Anyway, we meet a local retired A&P IA who has a set of scales we can borrow AND it's at his own field, where a few others also have planes. I didn't even know that field existed, and it's less than 8 miles from my house.

As we go to his place we stumble upon a COMPLETE 170 sitting in the weeds (no idea who owns it, we think the A&P guy). Honestly, I've never really onced over a 170 and never realized they have the same lines as the 190's and 195's. Not sure how I missed that all these years... Anyway, it just struck me as a REALLY sharp looking plane so I started researching. I'm pretty sure it flew in 15 to 20 years ago and hasn't been touched since. Metal wings, and I don't think it had V struts, nor do I remember the newer wing, so going to assume for right now it's a 170A.

Here's the classic question... what do I look for? I restore EVERYTHING I can get my fingers on, it's a disease. I know this is generally a flawed question, so I'll qualify it a little.

What are the classic "don't even bother" items that can be found without dismantling?
What are the classic "really cool rare" things that make it worth considering, regardless?

I understand that with ANYTHING this old and neglected, it's a SERIOUS MAJOR project that will be a labor of love and that will easily earn me AT LEAST $0.50/hr... or less.

I also understand that once committed, you can find undersirable things lurking deep crevices that change the nature of the project totally.

My intentions, IF this thing is even buyable, are to get it at a price I can only lose a little should I decide to bail (or be forced to) and part it out and scrap the hull. Keep in mind, I HATE to see things scrapped... it's hurtful! Should it be for sale at a price more than I'm willing to pay, I'll simply pass along the info here first, sans interest or commission, etc.

That being said, my uneducated once over revealed no obvious canibalization whatsoever. I was shocked. Further off in the weeds is the fuse/emp of a severely parted out Navion... glad to see it wasn't like that. Half alum half paint, the paint is peeling. The glass all looks good. The motor looks complete and original, not one cowling dzus fastener undone. I really do think no one has touched it since parked. Unbelieveable.

Going to go start determining ownership tomorrow.

Thanks,

Mike "Tools" Danford
S-3B Viking/TA-4J Skyhawk driver
First Officer, Delta Airlines, currently flying A330's

EDIT: I spent Thanksgiving in Lagos Nigeria. We're not allowed out of the compound... and there's no movie channel. But, I did have internet and did read as much here as I could, including the "Cessna 170 resale values" thread. I understand it's more better to get one that HASN'T been sitting for 20 years, reference my remark about restoring EVERYTHING. My original goal was not to save the world, just everying rusty. I may have to include some things all alum oxided... It's a disease.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well Mike corrosion is the problem and that is what your looking for. Look everywhere you can and then some. There is no magic place though the carry through spars are important. If this is an A another spot is the elevator closeout bulkhead. Go to the back and see the tube that connects the elevators in the middle. Look at the bulkhead these tubes attach to. It is steel and will rot from the inside out. B models are different if it is a B.

The motor will need overhaul. Assuming it is in condition enough to overhaul count on about $20K just there. Besides looking for condition you also want to look at the books. Make sure it has a legal engine. Make sure any alterations are properly documented. If not just add more money.

If you got this airplane for nothing you will still be behind by the time you got it flying and we are not talking restored that will put you even further behind. That is why it has probably sat so long. It's value is questionable but it is seen to have to much value to the owner.

Pretty hard to say whether it is worth a second look. Pictures would help us help you. There are also a few members in Georgia and most of them like to look at 170s and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them doesn't already know a thing or two about this exact airplane. I wouldn't be afraid to say were it is, I doubt you'll be fighting of competition to buy it.

[Tools]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks. I've seen the "carrythough spar" mentioned quite a bit. Definitely the sorts of things I'm wanting to know.

I didn't realize my username didn't mention where I'm from, and I already presumed some folks here already know this plane. It's a VERY small world. I noticed Harold (a previous director of this association?) was from Lafayette, GA, where I keep my plane and not too far from where this 170 is, so I shot him a PM already.

Cheers,

Tools

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Lots of folks don't put a place in their username info so I don't automatically look there.

The carry through spar is difficult to inspect. You just can't see inside. So any corrosion about them is disturbing.

[Kyle]

HI Mike,

Any chance your Piet.... came from NJ. I know of a guy in northern NJ who spent 25 years building it in his basement. Don is his name. Just wondering...
Good luck with your projects

Kyle

[Tools]

Hi Kyle,

Nope, it came from Osceola WI, fairly close to Minneapolis. It was built in 2004, pretty easy to find by googling NX2RN, a blue and yellow one with a little A65 on it.

Tools

[GAHorn]

Hey.... It's a VERY small world. I noticed Harold (a previous director of this association?) was from Lafayette, GA, where I keep my plane and not too far from where this 170 is, so I shot him a PM already.

Cheers,

Tools

BEWARE of Harold! He talks so slow...any advice he gives you will be too late!

If you can do an engine yourself (have a friendly supervisory A&P) and get lucky with crankshaft, case, and conn-rods...you can "overhaul" (repair actually) this engine for around $10K. But you have to be willing to pinch pennies and do lots of durdy-work yourself.

Look at the aft-most bulkhead for cracks at the elevator bell-crank/brackets/bulkhead. Lots of airplanes have cracks/damage there and it's difficult to access and repair. Lay under the belly and look up at the double-row of rivets which cross sideways between the gear legs. Above is the gearbox. Look for wrinkles and popped rivets.
Look at the DOORPOSTS. Are they straight? (The majority of strength of a Cessna is made up at the doorposts. The front doorposts support the main-spar carrythrough and pass the landing gear loads to the airframe. They cannot be buckled/bent or otherwise weakened. Look at the rear doorposts. They carry the rest of the wing loads to the fuselage, and most of the stress of flap-deployments from the wing. Look inside the wings for powdery-corrosion on interior sides of skins, and structures. Look at cables/pulleys for rust/wear/frayed-strands/worn-rusty pulley bearings. Look at the vert stab dorsal-fin for damage from ground handling at the dorsal where it meets the spine of the fuselage. It's a small bracket in there and sometimes collapsed-skin means broken bracket. Look at the rudder bellcrank for damage from wind (Unlocked controls) banging the rudder against the stops, and the upper rudder from being improperly locked to the vert-stab. Look at the lower rudder for wrinkled/damaged skins from a broken tailwheel mount bolt which allowed the chained-tailwheel to beat the smithereens out of the rudder. Check to see if flight control pulleys are frozen, preventing easy, smooth operation of controls.
Lastly...if you've fallen in love with a 170....don't forget....the one you're looking at..... ain't the only one for sale.

[Tools]

Thanks for the heads up on Harold. Pretty sure he's not the only one speaking slowly in this area!

Great place to start looking, thanks. If this long shot does work out, I'll definitely be doing all the dirty work.

Hopefully I'll be able to go look at it again tomorrow and will try to start getting pictures and details.

Tools

[jlwild]

Tools,

There are three (3) 170 Club members based at Cartersville, GA. One (Bruce) is a Delta pilot. Then there is me and Scott (both retired). Scott (A&P) rebuilt his plane several years back and I completed a progressive restoration on my 5 years ago. So,If you need some help checking out the plane gives us a call or send us a PM. ) We would love to fly up and usually we are looking for an excuse to fly. We are in the Membership Directory.

Have you joined the association yet? If so, you can find a fairly complete listing of the Georgia 170 members in the Membership Directory on the Forum homepage if you click on Members only section. Our phone numbers and addresses can be found there. And WELCOME TO THE CLUB, as you may have noticed you can always get some kind of answer if you ask

[FredMa]

Do you know the engine model # ? 8 bolt crankshaft or 6 bolt crankshaft? What is the tail # ?

[runerider]

Since you have been down the restoration road before you know you can always buy it cheaper than building it yourself. With that being said it will be a very rewarding task if you finish it. If they gave you the plane, you are looking at @50 grand ( I know I'm in the middle of the same project) some might think that is way off but when you add every thing up it will be real close. Such things as hangar rent, outside maint. paint job, engine work, needed parts,new interior radios, glass, and the list goes on. It sounds like a great project for you and your son, but you might want to consider a flyable 170 and restore it. There are some good sounding and looking 170s in TAP, Barnstormers that would be a good base to start a project. Good luck and enjoy your restoration

[Harold Holiman]

On PM we are narrowing down information on the plane. It was probably last flying five to ten years ago and I have given Mike a contact number for Lynn who last rebuilt the plane about twenty years ago and also maintained the plane when it was last in annual.

Harold

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Heck Harold, sounds like a shot of WD-40 and she'll be ready to go.

[Tools]

Ok, went and looked at it again. Good news, it's only been there three years. The engine probably needs rebuilding, torn down for sure, but otherwise airworthy. Bad news, owned by someone who regularly buys airplanes and lets them sit until they don't ever fly again... arg. Lynn mentioned he'd like to try and get it from the owner, so we'll see.

I wrote down the N number, but don't have it with me. Also, it looks to be a B. Stay tuned!

Tools

[Tools]

This is classic!

Harold, thanks for Lynn's numbers. Coincidentally I got them this morning from him when I borrowed his scales. I met Lynn at Barwick, he told me where he lived, but I didn't have a chance to write down his number. When I first tried to find him to borrow the scales, is when I found this plane, and Lynn wasn't home.

The damaged plane was a different one, Lynn rebuilt that one.

Jim, thanks for the reply as well. For the rest of you, here's the classic part of all of this. I find an old plane in the weeds, figure it's expensive in the long run, but cheap to get and get started. While that probably isn't the case, and it probably isn't even available, I now have this horrible bug for one of these! Jim has given me a reference for another local 170 for sale, so going to look into that.

I'll keep my eyes on this one and will let ya'll know what comes of it.

The coolest part is that quite unintentionally I find one hell of a great group of folks to chat planes with at the very least. Many quite local to me. While it may be expensive to restore one of these, that sort of thing is priceless!

Cheers,

Tools