Endorsement

[15A]

My son is in process of getting his Private's and has been going thru a local flight school using their C172. He has soloed and has completed his 1st dual cross-country. Now he's scheduled to do a solo xcountry to that same airport.
Here's my dilemma
He got his tail wheel endorsement in my C172TW and has soloed my plane thru another instructor. 3 hours of short-field, asphalt, grass, x-wind, stalls, etc... All went well.
His current instructor who has soloed him for xcountry says he is not endorsed to fly that xcountry in my 172TW because his endorsment "wouldn't be considered authorized".
The school was well aware that he would be flying my plane ASAP right from the very beginning.
I don't understand why he couldn't take my plane now .
Am I missing something?

[blueldr]

I think the flight school and the instructor are trying to make money and screw your son around. Check with the FUZZ (FSDO)>

[15A]

BL,
That's what I thought. But I've been getting conflicting reports!
I need to read it in the 'law book' it seems. But still open for comments

[gparker]

It is true...

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/ac61_65e.pdf

Any instructor can give the endorsement though.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I think whats happening is this instructor isn't qualified to endorse your son to fly your plane. This instructor isn't qualified to fly your plane why would he be qualified to endorse someone else to fly it.

[15A]

GPARKER,
Thanks for the "law"
But I'm still baffled! What do you mean by "Any instructor can give the endorsement though."

From what I understand, his school instructor, who is not TW certified, can't endorse him for a solo xcountry in my plane?

[15A]

Bruce,
Why shouldn't he endorse it? He's not going to be there anyhow!
He is endorsed to fly that plane solo, and he's endorsed to fly xcountry to that particular airport (Groton, Conn.)
To me, it's like he could drive a Chevy, but not a Ford

[GAHorn]

Here's the opinion of myself as well as a couple of the instructors here at work:

The son is endorsed to fly the 172, as well as the conventional-geared 172.
The primary instructor is authorized to endorse the x-country in either aircraft if the applicant (son) is endorsed to fly either aircraft. The endorsement for a x-country is irrespective of which airplane is utilized.

However, even tho' the primary instructor is authorized to make this endorsement... he may not be comfortable in doing so..perhaps because he is not tailwheel qualified himself...
But even tho' he is qualified, capable, and authorized to endorse the applicant for a x-country in your 172TW... does not mean he is comfortable doing so....and one cannot make any instructor to make an endorsement he does not wish to do. It is not a "demerit" of him, in my opinion. This is not much different than a passenger trying to make any of us takeoff into weather we don't want to depart into.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

It's not quite a Chevy/Ford debate as each has four wheels. It's more of a Chevy / Harley debate. They both have engines and drive on roads and should stop at stop signs but the control to do so is different. The primary instructor may not feel qualified to authorize the flight (though he may be) because he himself would not be authorized to do it.

I don't know that I would do it if I was in the instructors shoes, at least without further investigation to insure I was authorized to make the endorsement. Of course he may just be trying to strong arm you into using their airplane. You won't know until you ask him directly.

George and I are saying about the same thing.

[15A]

I do appreciate your answers and comments on this situation. I'm 'old school' and see $$$ being spent where it might not be necessary. My son is willing to bite the bullet and continue on with this school. I, have other thoughts!
The instructor that endorsed his tailwheel was an older, experienced individual opposed to the 'young buck' that's teaching him while building time to move on and upward.
Regardless, not here to change the world! We'll let things progress and eventually I'm sure all scenarios will work out.

And Bruce, you made a much more accurate comparison --------- Chevy's and Harley's ... (I'm really not a Ford man!)

[hilltop170]

Why not just have the instructor who did the tailwheel endorsement endorse the cross country?

[15A]

Hilltop170,

That's a game that I really don't want to play!
I had arranged for the TW endorsement with an instructor from another school. Only because my sons' current school was unable to do so.
He'll keep flying the school plane x-country/dual and mine locally. I'm sure things will change.

[jrenwick]

The instructor who doesn't want to make the X-C endorsement might be concerned about the requirements in FAR 61.93(c) and (d) where the instructor certifies that the student is prepared to make the flight safely. I don't think I would want to sign such an endorsement unless I had given the student both his X-C training and the 61.87 pre-solo training in the type of aircraft to be used. Just my opinion....

[voorheesh]

The basic student solo privileges are for make and model with one time endorsement on the student pilot certificate and 90 day endorsement in the logbook (61.87) - for each make and model authorized. Student solo cross country privileges require additional training from an authorized instructor in the make and model (61.93). The student pilot certificate cross country solo endorsement is for aircraft category (such as airplane). Two logbook endorsements are required: "A student pilot must have a solo cross country endorsement from an authorized instructor that is placed in the the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model of aircraft to be flown". This is in addition to the basic 90 day endorsement. For each cross country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross country planning must make an endorsement in the student's logbook that again states the make and model to be flown (61.93).
The instructor who signs the student pilot certificate (solo x country endorsement) must be the one who conducted the training. Subsequently, instructors can make separate make and model solo x country endorsements after actually conducting training in each specific make and model. The instructor reviewing the flight planning is not required to have ever flown with the student. Their responsibility is to ensure the student is qualified, review the planning, and make any limitations. In most cases the same instructor does all the above.
Another issue that should be considered is a "tailwheel endorsement" 61.31 i versus student pre solo requirements 61.87. Student training involves a lot more than the simple tailwheel endorsement. The instructor who conducted the tailwheel pre solo training should have treated it as a full pre solo exercise with pre solo test specific to tailwheel aircraft and proper endorsements.
A Cessna 172 that has been modified to have a tailwheel is not a different make and model from a stock Cessna 172. Therefore, a solo cross country endorsement is the same from one Cessna 172 to another regardless of configuration. This is a "technical" or "legal" statement. It should be obvious to anyone on this forum that the 2 aircraft have entirely different flight characteristics during takeoff/landing. A CFI who is being asked to make the endorsement for a specific x country flight is being responsible and prudent to decline making the endorsement if he or she is not sure of the student's abilities to do it safely. In this case, the tailwheel qualified instructor should fly a cross country flight with the student and make the required make and model endorsement for solo x country (specify tail wheel in the endorsement). Once that has been accomplished, any instructor can review the student's flight planning and authorize the specific solo x country in dad's 172tw. This is not a rule requirement but it does make sense and is the safest way to get this new pilot's training accomplished.
Best wishes to you and your son and hope all goes well.

[Brad Brady]

Well, I didn't take time to read every sentence of every post. But to cut to the chase, If the boy has a tail wheel endorsement he can fly a 172 TW. But from his flight instructor's perspective, who apparently doesn't have a tail wheel endorsement, He is singing him off using the instructors licence. If he is concerned with potential winds, He can't with certainty, allow his licence to travel with a young man he has no knowlage of the aircraft the young man is flying. I don't think anyone is trying to take advantage of anyone. I think it is just a case of CYA....