paint job - log book entry

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

russfarris
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 2:25 am

paint job - log book entry

Post by russfarris »

This wouldn't have occurred to me, but my always inquisitive airplane partner Forrest brought it up.

I'm in the process of painting our 1957 172 myself, in the original scheme of two tone trim over polished aluminum. Since you don't need an A & P to paint an airplane (only balance re-painted control surfaces) does the airframe log need to have this recorded? Weight and balance revised?
I don't see any reason why I can't make an entry myself. What are the legal requirements (if any...) Russ Farris
All glory is fleeting...
User avatar
canav8
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by canav8 »

Russ absolutely you must have an A&P return the aircraft to service after painting. You must also have the A&P balance flight controls then you must have a logbook entry stating so. I suggest the following sections. Refer to CFR14 Part 43 section 43.9, 43.13, and Part 91.407(b)Mtx test flight before carrying passengers. Basically, re-weight the aircraft is good maintenence practice. Not required but your A&P may insist on it if he cares about his license. All the best. Hope to see it in San Diego next year. Doug
52' C-170B N2713D Ser #25255
Doug
russfarris
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 2:25 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by russfarris »

Doug - are you sure? The control surfaces were not painted - they have never been painted - bare aluminum, as delivered 53 years ago. The aircraft is polished aluminum, with a few trim stripes. Since you do not need an A & P to legally paint an airplane, why do you need one to sign off the logbook? Russ Farris
All glory is fleeting...
russfarris
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 2:25 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by russfarris »

I think I found my own answer - under FAR Part 43, appendix A. Owner approved preventative maintanance.

Doug, I guess I wasn't clear, since I didn't state I wasn't painting the control surfaces. An A & P would be required to balance re-painted control surfaces and make an entry.

From FAR Part 43, appendix A.

(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.

Since it's under owner approved preventative maintainance, I should think I can make the logbook entry myself. Russ Farris
All glory is fleeting...
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
Posts: 10313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Russ I agree you don't need an A&P in your case assuming you meet the requirements of 43.13 and are an owner operator with a private certificate or higher.

I think this is an area were common sense needs to come into play. Yes I know common sense is not found in FAR 1.1. :roll:

One could argue either side. One could say that the regulations clearly allow you to refinish your airplane with limitations that are clearly spelled out. And therefor as long as you abide by those limitations you could do anything that is required. I believe that means a W&B if you as the person performing the maintenance feels that is appropriate. We have already discussed the W&B thing here and I remember being in the minority with that opinion.

The other side of the fence would argue that the regulation was written to allow repair of area not an entire paint job with in the limitations. That you could not take an airplane that is fully painted and strip the entire fuselage and wings sans balanced control surfaces and leave them natural or repaint them. The main argument is that a W&B surely needs to be done in this case and an A&P required for that. And so the intent of the regulation is not what it actually says.

So what you have to decide is do you follow exactly what is written in the regulation, and use commons sense as to what that allows you to do. Or do you follow what you think the intent of the regulations was using common sense to determine limitations. :?

Now looking at my aircraft records my current 170A has been painted twice, both times by reputable local shops. The first it would have had to started as bare aluminum from the factory and it received a full paint scheme, not just accent strips. The second time the airframe was completely stripped and repainted a different base color. Other than mentioning the repaint and the fact the balanced controls were checked, there is no mention of a W&B. So much for reputable shops.

If I was repainting any part of my plane within the limitations set forth under appendix A, I would make a log entry. I wouldn't have a problem repainting all the original trim with a log entry either. But if I ever stripped and repainted my entire airplane I would insist on the aircraft being weighed. But as those of you who know me a bit know, I will never have to face the total repaint/W&B question. :wink:
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
User avatar
170C
Posts: 3182
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 11:59 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by 170C »

Bruce, somewhere in the FAR's, I can't recall exactly where :roll: , it states that a Rat Plane is inelgible for a complete new paint job. :lol: :lol: So be careful you don't do anything illegal :mrgreen:
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20968
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by GAHorn »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Russ I agree you don't need an A&P in your case assuming you meet the requirements of 43.13 and are an owner operator with a private certificate or higher.

I think this is an area were common sense needs to come into play. Yes I know common sense is not found in FAR 1.1. :roll:

One could argue either side. One could say that the regulations clearly allow you to refinish your airplane with limitations that are clearly spelled out. And therefor as long as you abide by those limitations you could do anything that is required. I believe that means a W&B if you as the person performing the maintenance feels that is appropriate. We have already discussed the W&B thing here and I remember being in the minority with that opinion.

The other side of the fence would argue that the regulation was written to allow repair of area not an entire paint job with in the limitations. That you could not take an airplane that is fully painted and strip the entire fuselage and wings sans balanced control surfaces and leave them natural or repaint them. The main argument is that a W&B surely needs to be done in this case and an A&P required for that. And so the intent of the regulation is not what it actually says.

So what you have to decide is do you follow exactly what is written in the regulation, and use commons sense as to what that allows you to do. Or do you follow what you think the intent of the regulations was using common sense to determine limitations. :?

Now looking at my aircraft records my current 170A has been painted twice, both times by reputable local shops. The first it would have had to started as bare aluminum from the factory and it received a full paint scheme, not just accent strips. The second time the airframe was completely stripped and repainted a different base color. Other than mentioning the repaint and the fact the balanced controls were checked, there is no mention of a W&B. So much for reputable shops.

If I was repainting any part of my plane within the limitations set forth under appendix A, I would make a log entry. I wouldn't have a problem repainting all the original trim with a log entry either. But if I every stripped and repainted my entire airplane I would insist on the aircraft being weighed. But as those of you who know me a bit know, I will never have to face to total repaint/W&B question. :wink:
I/We hold these truths to be self-evident:
Bruce has been reading my tomes too looonnnnng.
Bruce now writes incredibly loooonnnng answers to short questions.
An owner-pilot may paint and log the job himself if the control surfaces are not painted.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
Indopilot
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:18 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by Indopilot »

I recently finished an annual of a 170 that was new to me but reported to be in excellent condition. Had about a 7 out of ten paint job from approx. 15 years before. I kind of figured I was in a mess when the owner said it was in great shape. Generally a bad sign. I always check for paint on the attach bolts for the control surfaces and sure enough these had paint that matched the paint job so obviously they had not been off since being painted. The logs showed three paint numbers listed in the back of one log book as an after thought, nothing else. When I pulled the control surfaces I found seized bearings ( not unusual) a missing bushing in the bottom rudder attach point, and # 8 screws holding the ailerons on. The aiilerons had been modified with a strip of .040 x 1/2"x 9 feet aluminum strip to hold the trailing edge straight since the perpetrator lacked the correct tools to hold it straight while riveting. Needless to say the ailerons were WAY out of balance. as was the rudder.
To rebalance the ailerons in that configuration would have required adding over three lbs of lead to each aileron just to balance out the bogus strip. I had to drill the trailing edge out to remove the strip before adding a little weight to bring them into line. And this was just a few of the 60 plus discrepancies. The owners comment was that he could not understand why the A/C had made it thru 15 annuals and everyone else didn't squawk this till I came along. He had bought the A/C the previous year W/O a annual or "prepurchase inspection" and thought it was in great shape.
52 170B s/n 20446
56 172 s/n 28162
Echo Weed eater, Jezebeel
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20968
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by GAHorn »

I once preflighted a Baron that had been flying for 4 years since it was painted by the "expurts" down at Devine, TX. The left/right elevators had a huge split between them (you could move one up/down 1-2 inches before the other elevator moved at all.) The 1/4" bolt which held them both to the elevator bell-crank was stuck thru the bellcrank and the nylok nut was finger-tight to the first threads only.... not even tightened down to the bolt shank. If that nut had backed off at any time in the previous 4 years the occupants would have completely lost control of the elevator.

I once visited the paint shop in Big Spring, TX for a tour of the facility. The guy did really pretty paint on all kinds of aircraft. He said he had an A&P on the field who balanced all the flight controls as part of his paint jobs, no exceptions. He then proceeded to show me all the stages of painting an aircraft, and had a customer's airplane in each stage of stripping, cleaning, repairing, masking, priming, painting, second-coat, clear-coat, interior re-install.... the works. It was very impressive. Until I noticed that absolutely NONE of the aircraft in ANY stage of the process had it's controls in the removed state. 8O

(He was particularly proud of the hail-damaged Bonanza he'd just finished, which showed no evidence of hail damage at all, due to expert body-filler work. The only way to realize that airplane had heavy hail damage was to pull the headliner down to see the dents in the cabin roof which resembled claw-hammer-strokes. The flight controls and empennage had untold pounds of Bondo applied very expertly.) 8O
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
Brad Brady
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:54 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by Brad Brady »

Russ,
To make things simple, just befriend an AP....Do the work, keep him abreast of what you are doing, if he trusts you, he will sing the AC off. You just have to flip him some cash.

George,
When I worked for Lewis University, the over lord that managed, the manager of our shop, was so proud of himself getting a ten thousand dollar paint job from some shop. We spent a month cleaning the stripper and other gunk, from the controls and other areas to make the aircraft airworthy....YES, you guessed it...the controls were never removed. So an Illeagle paint job was bought. This is just the tip of the stupidity iceberg...But thats another story.... It just irritates me when a job is half done. When I paint an aircraft, the empanage , wings, and engine come off. And all flying surfaces come off the wings. The aircraft is striped, cleaned, any repairs made, realidined, Primed, painted, balanced, and reconstructed with new hardware. To see every thing...this is the only way to paint an aircraft.....IMHO
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20968
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by GAHorn »

Some things seem so obvious to me, that I sometimes forget to post the complete thought, assuming everyone thinks like I do. (That's a scary thought in-itself) :lol:

Anyway... the problem with Bondo on flight controls is.... if that stuff vibrates loose in-flight... the sudden change in flight-control balance could instigate flutter which, in-turn, will probably result in complete loss of control of the airplane.

In particular, Beech Bonanzas (and many other Beech models) use magnesium for elevator skins, because those airplanes are so tailheavy they can easily get out-of-envelope (tail-heavy) in-flight. (A great many Beech models carry their fuel forward of the main wing-spar, which results in a aft-shifting C.G. during flight as fuel is consumed. I have personally seen a Bonanza taxy in to the chocks and when the pilot shut down the engine, the loss of idle-thrust caused the airplane to sit it's tail on the ramp! 8O When the person in the co-pilot's seat disembarked the CG shifted even farther aft and dug the tail tie-down ring into the asphalt! :roll:

That pilot likely experienced elevator control-reversal in flight. 8O

(And isn't it nice to have a CESSNA which does not have large shifts of CG simply due to fuel-burn!) :P

To continue re: the Bondo on the Bonanza tail-surfaces: Can you imagine what 5 or 10 pounds of Bondo/body-filler could do to the CG of a lightly-loaded Bonanza? not to mention what it would do if it left the elevator in-flight? 8O
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
voorheesh
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:22 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by voorheesh »

Is there any guidance on the use of bondo or filler on aircraft skin other than flight controls? I do not remember seeing it in 43.13. Do any aircraft manufacturers ok it in a maintenance manual? Is there a product available that is recommended for aircraft?
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
Posts: 10313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Doesn't answer Voorheesh's question but Sikorsky helicopter uses lots (gobs really) of bondo on brand new S-76 (as well as others I'm sure) airframes to cosmetically mate those areas of the fuselage that are "plastic" and those that are metal. You'll almost never see one without cracks in the body. I'm sure Sikorsky isn't the only manufacture to use the same process.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20968
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by GAHorn »

Most aircraft finish products these days are "approved systems" which means you can't use or mix products in association with others that are not part of the approved process-system.
U S Paints, in their "Alumigrip" product line, has an approved "trowelable" epoxy fairing filler-product called "Awl-Fair". It is the only such product I'm aware of that is approved for aircraft, although there may be others. Altough it's been widely used for years for filling minor imperfections prior to painting, I do not know of any approval basis for "Bondo" brand automotive body filler for aircraft use, even tho' it is primarily an epoxy-type product. Of course, mfr's can do a lot under their production authority.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
marathonrunner
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:49 am

Re: paint job - log book entry

Post by marathonrunner »

Having painted many airplanes, I can only agree with Brady. You have to remove everything including access panels. Wings off tail off contro surfaces off. Once stripped you will have many sheet metal repairs to make. ONce painted and reassembled, after balancing control surfaces, rigging control travels and making sure cable tensions are correct, you should weigh the aircraft. You will be surprised how much it can change. Remember, you always get what you pay for, or also what you don't pay for. A little bit of paint covers a multitude of sin.
It's not done till it's overdone
Post Reply