VFR-IFR Questions

[W.J.Langholz]

It seems like this year there has been too many bad GA Accidents. Maybe I just have become more aware of them I don't know.I do not have my IFR ticket and I have heard all the statements of why I should get my IFR ticket, and you should hear my insurance man preach, putting that all aside I have these questions that maybe some of you guys know the answer to.

1) Of all the GA Pilots what is the percent of IFR vs VFR pilots
2) Of all the accidents that had a fatality what is the percent of IFR vs VFR pilots.

Are the percentages higher that there will be a fatality if the pilot Has his IFR ticket?

It comes down to self discipline as to go or no go regardless, but if you didn't have Your IFR ticket there would be no temptation to even try it.

So guys in the know give me some statistics.

Thanks

W.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I don't like statistics. Statistically speaking behind only Alaska commercial fisherman, who are nuts BTW, I have the most dangerous job.

W. I'm not sure what you are looking for would be easily available. I'd suspect that the accident rate for non instrument rated pilots is higher but not because they can't fly worth a darn but because there are more of them and more VFR flying attempted.

You are right, you have got to know your own limitations what ever they are. But that doesn't mean you should not try to improve your skills and your limitations. Will you be a safer VFR pilot if you have at least some additional training in flying under IFR, yes I think you will be. If you poke your head in a cloud for what ever reason you've got to be better off with some training than without.

[canav8]

It seems like this year there has been too many bad GA Accidents. Maybe I just have become more aware of them I don't know.I do not have my IFR ticket and I have heard all the statements of why I should get my IFR ticket, and you should hear my insurance man preach, putting that all aside I have these questions that maybe some of you guys know the answer to.

1) Of all the GA Pilots what is the percent of IFR vs VFR pilots
2) Of all the accidents that had a fatality what is the percent of IFR vs VFR pilots.

Are the percentages higher that there will be a fatality if the pilot Has his IFR ticket?

It comes down to self discipline as to go or no go regardless, but if you didn't have Your IFR ticket there would be no temptation to even try it.

So guys in the know give me some statistics.

Thanks

W.

W.
I am an aviator as a profession. I am also an active flight instructor. I have instructed many aviators in my time.I would like to offer you this to ponder. I will encourage any aviator to get more training. More training and training often. I also encourage flying with many other instructors. In fact you should never do a flight review twice in a row by the same instructor. When it comes to instrument training, I encourage it. It is a valuable resource to you as an aviator. It is a whole different world in the IFR environment. Always in controlled airspace and being hand held to point B just like I do at the airlines. Often times it makes it a lot easier to go from point A to point B. Having said that, I have always feared for my IFR students. I almost never fear my VFR students. The reason?
My IFR students do not go after enough training once they got their instrument ticket to stay current. The comments I hear from IFR pilots is, its a hassle doing 6 approaches and holding every six months. They will often try weather with the attitude, that they have been trained. VFR students have a more clear definitive line of when they should stay home on the couch. Im just saying. If your considering it, I applaud you for trying it. Keeping the blue side up and trusting your instruments is a training dollar well spent. IMO Respectfully, Doug

[Blue4]

I'm afraid I'm not going to say anything unsaid. Perhaps concurring opinions may convince you.

Initial instrument training will make you a safer pilot, not necessarily because it is instrument training, but because it is training. It will expand your horizons, and make broader and deeper your knowledge base. I can generalize and say this is likely true of any training.

If instruments doesn't appeal to you right now, then go do something else! Learn spins, basic aerobatics, or gliders. The Wings program is just one way to document additional training, and the insurance companies have seen the correlation between continuing training and accident rates.

Go fly! With a CFI ...

-Scott

[voorheesh]

There is not an easy answer to your question. We average somewhere between 1200-1600 GA accidents/year in the US and about 200-300 are fatal. The highest percentage of accidents occur during takeoff and landing and those usually do not result in serious injuries or death. They do result in high insurance pay outs and that is why we pay what we do for insurance. There are fewer accidents involving weather but inadvertant flying into IMC has a high percentage of fatalities because the pilot usually loses control of the aircraft at altitude or at high speed. This type of accident happens to pilots with no instrument ratings, instrument ratings, and Airline Transport Ratings. If you are flying VFR and encounter weather, you should either land or get an IFR clearance if you and your aircraft are capable. If it happens, control you aircraft and get help.

Obtaining an instrument rating is a way of advancing your pilot skills and opening up options to you. As a CFI, I would highly recommend an instrument rating to my students and encourage them to practice, practice, practice. Maintaining instrument currency requires doing this and is important if you want to use the rating. Think of it like landing practice, the more you apply it the more proficient you become and the less your chance of having an accident. If you do fly IFR, use care and don't exceed you limitations as a pilot or the capabilities of your airplane. Fly with a CFI more often than 24 months. It is cheap insurance and will help increase your skills and confidence.

Learn about simple risk management and apply it to your flying. Example: I have been flying for 40+ years and I am current, IFR rated etc etc. I live in Fresno and my family lives in San Francisco. My airplane is a VFR only CE170. Lets say I fly into Oakland and take BART into the city. I have to be at work in Fresno early on Monday and when I get back to OAK at 1200 on Sunday there is the usual stratus layer and I see that little streak of blue sky over the Oakland hills. Do I want to rent a car and pay a week of parking at Kaiser? No. I may be tempted to try and scud run through the hills or follow 580 to Dublin. Thats all about powerlines, cloud covered hills. That can be the first chapter in an accident report. But guess what. I don't need that stress in my life so I don't put myself in that position. I drive or take Amtrack when I go to the Bay. I fly my airplane when it is severe VFR. That's my comfort zone. Many pilots will disagree with me but that's a free country, right? Know your limitations and make your decisions accordingly. Your decisions as a pilot probably have more to do with your chance of having an accident than your ratings or experience. Fly safe

[W.J.Langholz]

Bruce I do have 14 hours under the hood (not enouugh I know) and if I needed it for a job I would continue but for now I just don't enjoy it. I love looking out the window....maybe more than I should

Several things have happened this week that just makes me wonder at times.......the plane missing in Wyoming with father and sons is sad.....

My place of work is right next to the airport, somedays I pack a lunch, walk over to the hanger sit in my chair shut the cell phone off and enjoy.........Wed 6:45am as I pull in to work I hear this low pass over the runway. The WX is BAD,it's dark, rain, X-wind at 30 gust to 42, temps are near the freezing point,a 400' ceiling and I thinking ...Who's the nim-rod flying today...then my thought goes to ....this guys in trouble. I turn around and go over to the airport. There is a gent waiting to catch a ride out with this guy trying to come in. On the 3rd attempt to land with another go around the gent says to me "If that guy ever gets it on the ground tell him I went back home, I'll go another day" Well on the 5th attempt the 310 gets down on the ground. The cocky late 20 year old gets out struts his stuff up to the lounge. I say to him as he comes in the door," Hey buddy a bit windy today you want me to help you tie it down? Your ride left and went back home." He was irritated stompt around and says "Well I'm a 500 hour IFR rated pilot I can handle this little breeze" and he goes back out and takes off.............

Now I understand the saying something about there are no OLD BOLD PILOTS......


W.

[SteveF]

I tell people that the instrument rating improves many aspects of your general flying skills and is a cheap insurance policy even if you only fly VFR.

You usually improve your radio communications skills, learn a lot more about the capabilities of the electronics in your plane, learn more about the ATC system and the many ways it can provide assistance to you, improves your altitude and attitude flight skills, helps to solidify your knowledge of regulations, and is a challenge that you will get a great feeling of satisfaction out of mastering.

I also think that with the rating even if you are not current it improves your ability to not panic and make a good 180 if you need to. Though you plan diligently for a VFR flight sometimes the weather changes rapidly and if you get caught at least you have a better chance of getting down by knowing the system. I would rather talk to the authorities on the ground then have them trying to figure out why I crashed.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well W. I'd say you continued your 'training" right then and there. Unfortunately the young guy probably didn't.

We will assume the young guy did everything by the book and broke no FARs and so we would have to assume he operated in a safe manner. Didn't really matter how many attempts it actually took to land under this premise. If he had a valid alternate airport and the required fuel to get there and he had the visibility required at the start of the approach as well as a few other things, he might be able attempt the landing safely 10 times.

What he probably missed though is called risk management. Is the flight worth the risk. And risk doesn't always mean injury to persons or property. To the young go-for-it pilot there probably was no real consideration for whether he should do the flight, just that he could and therefor he did. All to often passengers aren't smart enough to go home. In this case the passenger obviously weighed the perceived risk and did.

Hopefully the young guy might realize at some point, hopefully sooner than later, that all flights aren't worth it. He and his passenger might have been perfectly safe but his passenger didn't think so. The pilot, by his actions, took a risk that to his passenger was not acceptable, the pilot failed though he completed this leg of the flight.

I'll bet this event was just good "refresher" training for you and for the rest of us.

[GAHorn]

Dubya... GET THAT RATING! You'll be so much happier once it's printed on your ticket. Guarranteed!

Firstly, it'll reduce your insurance rates. (Ask that insurance salesman who keeps hounding you.) That alone will eventually pay for the rating.

Secondly,.... It will INCREASE your PLEASURE flying immeasureably! You might be surprised to find that on low, scuddy days that keep sensible VFR pilots in the hangar... that it's a BEAUTIFUL SUNNY DAY about 3-thousand feet AGL and CLEAR ABOVE. (Take sun glasses along in your flight bag.) Additionally... all those VFR pilots stuck on the ground have cleared the airways for YOU to enjoy direct routing, in clear VFR weather-conditions while you're benefitting from better flight-following than you'll ever receive as a VFR flight from ATC!

Some of the silliest, unnecessary mistakes made by pilots is due to their own mis-guided fear of ATC/FAA. Many, Many pilots have gotten themselves in a "fix" because they were afraid to let ATC know they were experiencing a difficult situation that borders on, or qualifies as, an emergency...but they are afraid to declare the situation to ATC who can help them out of that dangerous condition. They are afraid of imagined consequences. So, they continue on and we read about them in the accident reports.

Similarly, many many pilots who were afraid of IFR cloud/visibility conditions have run scud and taken dangerous chances hoping the conditions will improve shortly, after having already flown further into the weather than they wish to admit to themselves or ATC.....and they are hoping they can just get out of this present situation and they promise themselves they'll NEVER do this again!

What silly, UNNECESSARY stress and danger! If only they were TRAINED as IFR capable pilots...they could simply ASK for a clearance that would LEGALLY and SAFELY get them back into good, clear weather and safely back home again!

Even if you NEVER actually file and fly an instrument flight plan... you will be so much better equipped as a VFR pilot, if you only had that instrument ticket.

I have many times been flying along under a bumpy cloud-deck, maybe only broken layers that are too closely-clouded to make a legal climb to VFR on top... and my passenger(s) are suffering along with me, when I've simply called ATC, asked for a "climb to VFR conditions on top", and ATC has given me exactly what I wanted "cleared to VFR conditions on top, report reaching VFR". I get on top where it's nice, smooth, unlimited visibility,... passengers relax and enjoy the ride and view,..and I report to ATC where the tops are located and "cancel IFR" ...or sometimes continue on the IFR flight plan I may have already filed before departure simply as a "hedge" in case wx was not as nice as expected. (I frequently file IFR flt plans even tho' I do not avail myself of their use. That way they are already "in the can" (a reference to the days of yesteryear when controllers would send written flight plans to another controller in the same facility via vacuum-canisters in suction-tubes, like early department stores and sometimes present auto-banking does.) If/When I find it more convenient, all I have to do is call ATC and ask for my pre-filed clearance. Or not ...if I wish to continue VFR.

(Another advantage of this is when I find a presidential or other TFR in my way and want flight following thru the area. If a flight plan is already filed, then ATC can clear me thru the TFR outer areas that I'd otherwise have to go way-around.)

GET THAT RATING! You'll love the more-professional way you'll conduct your flights, and you'll find you enjoy the higher capability you and your passengers will have available when conditions change along your flight path.

[DaveF]

The problem with instrument training is how little it resembles real instrument flying. 99.9% of the instrument flying you'll do WHEN you get your rating will be just what George described: Climb to on top of clouds where it's smoother, drier, and cooler. You'll quit stressing over busting through a few puffies or thin layers, and your passengers will love it. The real secret (that we keep trying to expose!) is how easy it really is to fly IFR. The hardest thing about instrument flying is getting the rating. Do it, you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago.

[lowNslow]

The hardest thing about instrument flying is getting the rating.

I would say the hardest part is staying proficient after getting the rating.

[GAHorn]

Staying proficient is easy. All you have to do is file IFR even on VFR days, and fly the flight plan and log the req'd items. Shoot the complete approach occasionally, just for fun and for logging purposes.
Flying an IFR plan on a VFR day is a really sweet adventure. Instead of having to keep abreast of the airspace ahead and lookup the frequencies of the Class D (or whatever) the ATC controller working your flight will TELL you the freq of the next airspace/facility and hand you off to them. They will therefore already know who you are and where you're going, and you can keep the same squawk, without having to go thru the "find the freq", call and identity yourself, get radar identification, explain your request...and hope ATC will accomodate routine all the time. It's a smooth, effortless transition. SOOO much easier and smoother.

[blueldr]

Getting an instrument rating simply involves more training. More training is good....

[futr_alaskaflyer]

I don't like statistics. Statistically speaking behind only Alaska commercial fisherman, who are nuts BTW, I have the most dangerous job.

Actually I heard the other day that National Park Service employees now have the "most dangerous job" in Alaska because the fatality rate is now higher than commercial fishing. Over what time period they are averaging I do not know. This is of course in large measure to aircraft accidents.

[GAHorn]

Actually, I can attest to the FACT that the MOST DANGEROUS JOB is discussion/forums-moderator.