I spoke with the rep. at XP Mods this morning due to my interest in the Continental IO-360 conversion. I was wondering if anyone has experience with this outfit and in particular, this conversion. I plan on doing the conversion myself and wonder if the time/cost investment is worth it. I have noticed the Lycoming conversion offered by Avcon? but truly enjoy the Continental 6. I really do not know much about the Franklin although I would imagine parts would not be as readily available or as reasonable as Cont. or Lyc. though the initial investment seems very cheap. I imagine insurance would also move up more dramatically with the Franklin due to the HP.
Thanks,
Phillip
XP MODS IO-360
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
First there are a couple of members that have done the conv and love it. One has a C/S prop and one a fixed pitch prop. What I found was that there is a crank AD that adds to the cost of most engines. And if you go with a C/S prop it adds to the C/G then you have a header tank and fuel return lines to the wings because of fuel injection to add. I think you have to move the battery to the aft section. The Lyc conv you have to work on the cowling and it changes the look more. Both do what they advetise. The Franklin is a new in production engine, parts are available other people that have done that conv love it and can tell you more. I picked the Lyc because more have been done and the people like the performance. Lance
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zero.one.victor
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- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Here's my 2 cents worth:
If I were to do one of the engine conversions,I'd opt for the Lycoming O-360. An IO-360 (200 horse) might be even better. I'd consider going with a fixed prop,80" diameter or so if available, due to simplicity,lighter weight,and lower cost.
However,talking to people who've done the conversion,you better count on spending $30K or maybe even more unless you're able to do almost everything yourself--in other words,if you're an A&P/IA with lots of time on your hands-- and/or get a hell of a deal on an engine or complete firewall-forward package (like one of us did recently!).Even so,the used,midtime FWF package sold for around $19K if I recall correctly.
However,if you sell your 170 and add that money to the $30K a conversion costs,you can most likely buy a pretty decent 180. I really love 170's,but even with a big engine it ain't no Skywagon! But you don't have to be an airline pilot to afford one,either!
OK,all you flamers,open fire!
Eric
If I were to do one of the engine conversions,I'd opt for the Lycoming O-360. An IO-360 (200 horse) might be even better. I'd consider going with a fixed prop,80" diameter or so if available, due to simplicity,lighter weight,and lower cost.
However,talking to people who've done the conversion,you better count on spending $30K or maybe even more unless you're able to do almost everything yourself--in other words,if you're an A&P/IA with lots of time on your hands-- and/or get a hell of a deal on an engine or complete firewall-forward package (like one of us did recently!).Even so,the used,midtime FWF package sold for around $19K if I recall correctly.
However,if you sell your 170 and add that money to the $30K a conversion costs,you can most likely buy a pretty decent 180. I really love 170's,but even with a big engine it ain't no Skywagon! But you don't have to be an airline pilot to afford one,either!
OK,all you flamers,open fire!
Eric
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
I had a Stinson 108 four years ago that I bought unknowingly with a rusted out Franklin 220. I overhauled the engine getting some parts from the CO importer (super good guys). Once flying again it was the smoothest engine I've ever flown. Turbine-like! I decided to sell the airplane and get the 170 in part because I didn't like the idea of 1.5 to 1 compression ratios being an old round engine 6 to 1 cr guy.
I decided on the Lycoming 180 because I think it's still the right engine for the airframe. Why do we need close to Cessna 180 horsepower in our 170 airframe? Plus I was the lucky one that acted quick when Tom Schulke advertised it in October. Yes Eric it was $19k with the Javelin tank. But it's a narrow deck 1100 hour engine. I figured with a new cs prop and a comparable engine It would be just under $30k to start new and this was ready to just bolt in place without all the nagging little problems and little parts to buy. I think you could get very close to $40k in parts for a new system really easy.
I would think the Continental 360 in a carburated version would be real nice but the fuel mods for the injected version would keep me from doing that.
If you really need the space and performance of the 180 then go for it. But remember that a $65 k 170 (converted) with a new FWF is probably going to be a much more reliable airplane than any old beater 180 that you can find for that money.
I decided on the Lycoming 180 because I think it's still the right engine for the airframe. Why do we need close to Cessna 180 horsepower in our 170 airframe? Plus I was the lucky one that acted quick when Tom Schulke advertised it in October. Yes Eric it was $19k with the Javelin tank. But it's a narrow deck 1100 hour engine. I figured with a new cs prop and a comparable engine It would be just under $30k to start new and this was ready to just bolt in place without all the nagging little problems and little parts to buy. I think you could get very close to $40k in parts for a new system really easy.
I would think the Continental 360 in a carburated version would be real nice but the fuel mods for the injected version would keep me from doing that.
If you really need the space and performance of the 180 then go for it. But remember that a $65 k 170 (converted) with a new FWF is probably going to be a much more reliable airplane than any old beater 180 that you can find for that money.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Dave,I think that given your mechanical abilities and the good deal you made on the FWF package,you're gonna end up with a real good airplane with a reasonable financial investment. However,not all of us have your mechanical experience and /or the time to do the work ourselves.That equates to having to hire the work done,which would probably run the costs up to the high side of the 30K I used as a benchmark. A ready-to-go FWF package for that price doesn't come along very often either--buying an engine,plus the STC kit,plus a bunch of odds and ends would probably run the costs up over the benchmark also.
I also think that a 180 or so horse engine is the right one for this airframe. I recall reading that an older Maule model (I think the M-5,maybe the M-4) used a 180-horse O-360 (not IO) Continental. Never heard of it in any other application. That'd be a good one,maybe,if the 170 mount etc was compatible.
How about a set of IO-360 cylinders (converted to carb.) bolted onto the C-145 in an "experimental 170" -- I can daydream,can't I?
Eric
I also think that a 180 or so horse engine is the right one for this airframe. I recall reading that an older Maule model (I think the M-5,maybe the M-4) used a 180-horse O-360 (not IO) Continental. Never heard of it in any other application. That'd be a good one,maybe,if the 170 mount etc was compatible.
How about a set of IO-360 cylinders (converted to carb.) bolted onto the C-145 in an "experimental 170" -- I can daydream,can't I?
Eric
It'd be a big help if we could get 145 hp out of our C-145/O-300's. At the static rpms allowed by the type certificate (2230 or so) we're only making 120 hp at takeoff.
An electric prop like the old Beech prop would be nice, so we could set it at fine pitch for takeoff and then re-adjust it afterwards. Hmmmmn.
An electric prop like the old Beech prop would be nice, so we could set it at fine pitch for takeoff and then re-adjust it afterwards. Hmmmmn.
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
High compression pistons,lumpy cam,controllable prop I can turn up to around 28 or 2900 for TO and climb--oh yeah!
Seriously,George,what happened to the controllable props approved on the TCDS? Koppers Aeromatic and McCauley two-position controllable. Looking at the TCDS, looks like the Aeromatic requires a dampered crankshaft (C-145-2H or O-300B),doesn't mention that requirement for the McCauley.
However,I've seen a small 4 cylinder Continental with an Aeromatic prop on the front of a Culver Cadet. Pretty sure it didn't have a dampered crank. I thought the Aeromatic was "air operated" by centrifigal motion and a counterweight arrangement.
Seems like an aftermarket electrically-adjustable prop might be made to work--illegally of course. I know a guy who had an arrangement like that on his Velocity--I think it was an Ivoprop.
Eric
Seriously,George,what happened to the controllable props approved on the TCDS? Koppers Aeromatic and McCauley two-position controllable. Looking at the TCDS, looks like the Aeromatic requires a dampered crankshaft (C-145-2H or O-300B),doesn't mention that requirement for the McCauley.
However,I've seen a small 4 cylinder Continental with an Aeromatic prop on the front of a Culver Cadet. Pretty sure it didn't have a dampered crank. I thought the Aeromatic was "air operated" by centrifigal motion and a counterweight arrangement.
Seems like an aftermarket electrically-adjustable prop might be made to work--illegally of course. I know a guy who had an arrangement like that on his Velocity--I think it was an Ivoprop.
Eric
1. I have recently completed installing a Cont.IO-360 in my '52 B Model using the XP Mods STC. Greatest thing since poontang! (As I remember it)
2. I am an A&P but I'm an old fart and can't work very fast anymore (over 80) but it was not that much of a job.
3. If you're used to a Cont.6 cyl.engine. you'll think the Lyc.O-360 is crapping out. In comparison, they shake like a dog sh------ peach pits.
4. Anyone wanting info., advice, or just want to BS about this conversion,call or email me.
Dick Lemmon (916)635-5566 blueldr@earthlink.net
2. I am an A&P but I'm an old fart and can't work very fast anymore (over 80) but it was not that much of a job.
3. If you're used to a Cont.6 cyl.engine. you'll think the Lyc.O-360 is crapping out. In comparison, they shake like a dog sh------ peach pits.
4. Anyone wanting info., advice, or just want to BS about this conversion,call or email me.
Dick Lemmon (916)635-5566 blueldr@earthlink.net
BL
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Dick,honestly,what much money did you invest in your powerplant upgrade? Even doing it yourself,with a zero- or low-time engine & prop,I'm gonna guess you spent at least $25K,maybe more. How much more would it have been to hire it done-another 3 to 5K?
If you've got the money & inclination,more power to you.I'd love that kind of performance,but I can't afford it,I need a cheap simple way to add power.
Back to the prop thing:
How about a ground-adjustable prop? Say I want to go fly the Idaho backcountry. I set the prop to coarse pitch for the 450 mile cross-coutry flight to Boise. 3-1/2 hours later I land,throw in some gas,set the prop to fine pitch,and go have some mountain-flying fun. Then back to coarse pitch for the trip home. Simple,light,and (relatively) cheap.
Just need to get a field approval for a Ivoprop or Warp Drive propeller--nothing to it!
The 80" McCauley seaplane prop would be a good way to get the kind of TO and climb I want,but Idaho's a long way away at 95 mph!
Eric
If you've got the money & inclination,more power to you.I'd love that kind of performance,but I can't afford it,I need a cheap simple way to add power.
Back to the prop thing:
How about a ground-adjustable prop? Say I want to go fly the Idaho backcountry. I set the prop to coarse pitch for the 450 mile cross-coutry flight to Boise. 3-1/2 hours later I land,throw in some gas,set the prop to fine pitch,and go have some mountain-flying fun. Then back to coarse pitch for the trip home. Simple,light,and (relatively) cheap.
Just need to get a field approval for a Ivoprop or Warp Drive propeller--nothing to it!
The 80" McCauley seaplane prop would be a good way to get the kind of TO and climb I want,but Idaho's a long way away at 95 mph!
Eric
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Like George said Eric the prop is the answer and you're on the right track but who knows if you can find the legal answer prop for the C-145.
So given that why do you think the Lyc 180 should install with a fixed pitch prop? BTW the Hartzell prop I got looks like new, no chips at all. It's always been in a heated hangar and never seen rain. Too bad it's 8 years old and overdue for the AD which will require an overhaul. Such BS.
So given that why do you think the Lyc 180 should install with a fixed pitch prop? BTW the Hartzell prop I got looks like new, no chips at all. It's always been in a heated hangar and never seen rain. Too bad it's 8 years old and overdue for the AD which will require an overhaul. Such BS.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Why fixed pitch prop?
1) lighter weight--might be a W&B factor with the bigger engine. What's the ready-to-run weight of the Lycoming vs. the C-145?
2) simpler--no hub to overhaul or leak,ditto for governor,no AD's,no control cable/knob to install.
3) cheaper--brand new,a fixed pitch prop is maybe $2500,that'd be for an 80"Mac. The Hartzell ad on the back of the latest 170 news sez a 2 blade c/s prop for the 180 horse 170 costs $7995. Whew!
Seems like I recall seeing that Mac sells a 3 blade c/s for that application now,but I don't recall the price.
Besides,Dave, I said I'd CONSIDER a fixed pitch,not that I was convinced about it. Makes for good discussion.
When do you plan to start on your conversion project?
Eric
1) lighter weight--might be a W&B factor with the bigger engine. What's the ready-to-run weight of the Lycoming vs. the C-145?
2) simpler--no hub to overhaul or leak,ditto for governor,no AD's,no control cable/knob to install.
3) cheaper--brand new,a fixed pitch prop is maybe $2500,that'd be for an 80"Mac. The Hartzell ad on the back of the latest 170 news sez a 2 blade c/s prop for the 180 horse 170 costs $7995. Whew!
Seems like I recall seeing that Mac sells a 3 blade c/s for that application now,but I don't recall the price.
Besides,Dave, I said I'd CONSIDER a fixed pitch,not that I was convinced about it. Makes for good discussion.
When do you plan to start on your conversion project?
Eric
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Dave Clark
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:25 pm
Eric
The 337 on the conversion shows a 20 lb increase. It'll probably wheel land better plus remember the Javelin in the baggage compartment?
Yes a fixed pitch is simpler and cheaper. Kinda like venturies. It's ok if that's what a person wants, I'm just saying you're back to the same old can't get all the horsepower with the fixed on takeoff and climb so you're really leaving something on the table. A neighbor at South Prarie had a fixed pitch 180 Lyc on his Skybolt that did make sense though. Lighter, couldn't go faster with all the drag of a bipe anyway, and you want the long climb prop for aerobatics anyway.
I remember in the 70's the key to a conversion was to score a good engine at a good price but with the homebuilders it's getting pretty hard to do.
I've been working hard on the cabin section, Javelin install, new antennas and coax, new glass, soundproofing, panel work and repaint etc. but plan to be flying the Lyc the end of February.
The 337 on the conversion shows a 20 lb increase. It'll probably wheel land better plus remember the Javelin in the baggage compartment?
Yes a fixed pitch is simpler and cheaper. Kinda like venturies. It's ok if that's what a person wants, I'm just saying you're back to the same old can't get all the horsepower with the fixed on takeoff and climb so you're really leaving something on the table. A neighbor at South Prarie had a fixed pitch 180 Lyc on his Skybolt that did make sense though. Lighter, couldn't go faster with all the drag of a bipe anyway, and you want the long climb prop for aerobatics anyway.
I remember in the 70's the key to a conversion was to score a good engine at a good price but with the homebuilders it's getting pretty hard to do.
I've been working hard on the cabin section, Javelin install, new antennas and coax, new glass, soundproofing, panel work and repaint etc. but plan to be flying the Lyc the end of February.
Dave
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
N92CP ("Clark's Plane")
1953 C-180
Throw your climb prop in the cabin and fly to McCall.
Land, get beer, steaks, etc. and pull the cruise prop/
install the climb prop.
Fart around in Idaho until you run out of beer/steaks
and/or you can't catch any more fish or women.
Land back at McCall, swap props again, fly home. Simple!
With my climb prop on my '54 B model (48 pitch), I get
2600rpm 50' into the take-off roll, and I can red-line it
in a shallow climb (cruise is a dismal 90-95mph however).
So I agree... If we could just control the propeller pitch
on our C-145s (and just get the 145hp that's there), we
wouldn't need a $25K-$30K engine conversion.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
Land, get beer, steaks, etc. and pull the cruise prop/
install the climb prop.
Fart around in Idaho until you run out of beer/steaks
and/or you can't catch any more fish or women.
Land back at McCall, swap props again, fly home. Simple!
With my climb prop on my '54 B model (48 pitch), I get
2600rpm 50' into the take-off roll, and I can red-line it
in a shallow climb (cruise is a dismal 90-95mph however).
So I agree... If we could just control the propeller pitch
on our C-145s (and just get the 145hp that's there), we
wouldn't need a $25K-$30K engine conversion.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
Forgot to say, Tailwheel Tommy at XP mods is a good
enough guy to deal with... it's just that the engine
mount and STC (for the Cont. IO-360 conversion)
is darned expensive (isn't it like $4K or $5K just for
the mount and STC?).
Also, the last time this subject came up, one of my
buddies warned me about staying clear of some early
model of the IO-360 (can't remember the suffix/designation,
but I want to say it's an early Skymaster motor/application).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
enough guy to deal with... it's just that the engine
mount and STC (for the Cont. IO-360 conversion)
is darned expensive (isn't it like $4K or $5K just for
the mount and STC?).
Also, the last time this subject came up, one of my
buddies warned me about staying clear of some early
model of the IO-360 (can't remember the suffix/designation,
but I want to say it's an early Skymaster motor/application).
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP