Parking Brake

A place to relax and discuss flying topics.

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GAHorn
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by GAHorn »

voorheesh wrote:We are all going to die. There is nothing new there. I guess there are some questions that just rub people the wrong way.
I'm certain that John was merely joking. It's a fun-thing that bluElder does.

It's your airplane. Do with it as you wish.

This owner knew about my admonition regarding the parking brake. He didn't think it would happen to him either. He sent me these photos in the hopes that I could use them to tell all you guys to believe. Regardless of good pilot's previous knowlege and best intentions, it still happens.

Image

Image
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
1SeventyZ
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by 1SeventyZ »

I didn't think twice on this one. A reasonable IA should be able to see the situation for what it is. This particular parking brake design introduces more risk than reward while operational.
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mit
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by mit »

Leave them hooked up but put the Good Years back on they work so much better! :? :twisted:
Tim
voorheesh
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by voorheesh »

Thanks George. I will pass your info to my IA and get the parking brake disconnected. I did not mean to start a controversy, just wanted to understand the problem. It seems like these "discussions" might be the wrong place to do that.
Voorheesh CE-170A N167 S/N 19225
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Voorheesh these discussions are the place to "discuss" this and that is what we are doing.

As stated we are talking about a design that is less then desirable that was abandon by the manufacturer. One that most of us admit we rarely use and a system that is not required. There isn't a parking brake on my J3 Cub.

The frustration I think you detect is not with you or your question but with the system. The system with will jump all over some need less AD because out of hundreds of thousands there are 3 failures and 2 of those are know to be cases of abuse. This is the case of a Lycoming crank AD.

But when the collective knows about a problem, because a manufacturer doesn't want to open up liability and or the FAA/NTSB hasn't collected enough info or they deem the problem doesn't financially justify an action, then there is none.

I'm frustrated because no one here, myself included ,can give you concrete legal precedent like an AD or SB to disconnect the parking brake. We can only share the experience of the collective association. We are frustrated because we run into to many IAs, not to mention the FAA, that have lost sight and lack common sense. I don't mean to put your IA into this category. He is actually right to question this. He is not as personally close to the 170 and he doesn't have the knowledge base we have collected.

As I said in my early post. Oh the games we play. I only wish for a simpler time when things seemed must easier.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

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Paul-WI
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by Paul-WI »

I disconnected mine last fall - I "assumed" it was already disconnected and found out it wasn't. I could actually feel the brake (left) engage and lock turning hard base to final. Maybe sloppy rudder work on my part but a quick tap would release it. My IA had no problem with me disconnecting it. Figured I don't use the parking brake anyway and why set myself up for a potential problem. Just my 2c worth.

Paul
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GAHorn
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by GAHorn »

voorheesh wrote:...My understanding of the parking brake operation is that the toe brake must be actuated and the cable must be pulled which allows a device to catch the shaft of the brake through a serration which will then hold pressure on the brake(s)until the device is released by pushing the cable back in. I am told that the parking brake can not be engaged unless the toe brake is actuated. My IA has advised me that my parking brake is adjusted properly,....
Voorheesh, please do not feel "attacked" in this thread. What you may have percieved as argumentiveness is actually an eagerness to assist by those who are well-convinced of the correctness of the action.
Having re-read your original post (in an effort to understand how this thread was perceived as argumentative) I realized I'd never addressed one of your earliest points... your understanding of the problem.
Your statement above is how the parking brake SHOULD function. Unfortunately it also has an UN-intended method of operation as well as the intended one.

The parking brakes operate by a mechanism consisting of a small locking-lever located at the operating shaft of the respective brake master cylinder. A Bowden cable, with it's operating knob on the panel, operates a yoke-cable, which lifts both levers (one on each master cylinder) locking or "jamming" the already-depressed brake into the applied position. Early model master cylinders utilized notched operating rods, later models utilized smooth rods, but all models use similar locking levers and operating cables. When deliberately "set", the locking-lever is "cocked" against the operating rod, and cannot be released until the pilot again applies brake-pedal pressure (and more forcefully than when setting the brakes) to allow the locking-lever to fall back to a relaxed position. The parking brake Bowden cable (and it's operating yoke-cable) are then pushed by the pilot back into the UN-applied position. The brakes are no longer applied except by the pilot's feet. That's how it normally works.

In the failure mode, the pilot applies full rudder rather forcefully (such as in an enthusiastic application of rudder in-flight during a gusty crosswind. (It could also happen during an aggressive turn on the ground, using a bit of brake to assist, but that is not likely to cause a landing problem, even tho' it might cause a taxying accident or might interfere with a turning takeoff.)
In any case, if the rudder pedal is enthusiastically applied in-flight, regardless of the pilot's care in not applying brake pressure, if the rudder pedal is moved fully forward it can contact the firewall blanket which will in turn lift the locking lever. IF that lever remains engaged then that brake will become locked into whatever application it has seen during the event. Despite even a talented pilot's best intentions to keep his feet on the floor and stay off the brakes, inadvertent brake pressures are commonly applied in vigorous rudder applications.
If that brake is applied and that locking lever is lifted by contact with any other object (such as a firewall blanket), the pilot will likely be unable to detect it and unlock it before touchdown.

Even if your firewall blanket is tidy and well forward of normal pedal movement, an excited application of rudder in-flight will move your pedals forward of their normal travel. The 170 (and many others) do not have a blocking "stop" at the pedal or firewall. Their only stop is at the rudder bellcrank, and plenty of stretchy-cable, loose and worn pulleys, and general slop (even in a well-maintained system) is available which can allow that rudder sufficient travel to lock the brake prior to touchdown.

(Even some of the much later "umbrella handle" operating systems utilize the same, defectively-designed locking levers, and they are also subject to this type of unrequested operation. The only type parking brake systems that has not suffered this sort of failure are those that actually capture hydraulic pressure in the brake system via some method other than locking pilot-depressed-pedals in the down position, i.e., they capture the hydraulic fluid applied pressure via a blocking valve and the pedals subsequently relax, or via an operating system which pulls the brake pedals into the applied position with no other action by the pilot upon the pedals. The hydraulic locking-valve method is commonly used in Beech and many multi-engined aircraft. Some later Cessnas use an umbrella-pull-handle which operates to pull the brake-pedals into the applied position without any other input from the pilot. These systems do not suffer from this failure mode.)

This discussion is intended to be helpful in understanding the problem with the type of parking brake systems in many Cessnas. I hope it is appreciated that only the COMPLETE removal of the locking levers from the master cylinders will alleviate the problem. Merely disconnecting the Bowden cable, or disconnecting the yoke-cable will NOT prevent locking levers from locking the brakes. I also hope this helps everyone remember that our words can be received differently than intended. (I'm one of the worst.) :wink:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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N3243A
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by N3243A »

gahorn wrote: Voorheesh, please do not feel "attacked" in this thread. What you may have percieved as argumentiveness is actually an eagerness to assist by those who are well-convinced of the correctness of the action.
Well said. There are no SB or AD's on this issue and I don't think we really want them either. In many ways ,this forum acts as in informal "Service Bulletin" and is comprised of individuals with the collective experience to show a correct or better course of action. What it really boils down to in my opinion is we don't want to see you bend your airplane over your IA's insistence of keeping the parking brake operational. I offer apologies if my post was seen as confrontational.

Regards, Bruce
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4583C
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by 4583C »

gahorn wrote: This discussion is intended to be helpful in understanding the problem with the type of parking brake systems in many Cessnas. I hope it is appreciated that only the COMPLETE removal of the locking levers from the master cylinders will alleviate the problem. Merely disconnecting the Bowden cable, or disconnecting the yoke-cable will NOT prevent locking levers from locking the brakes.
I also hope this helps everyone remember that our words can be received differently than intended. (I'm one of the worst.) :wink:
An Excellent point that needs to be stressed! When I bought my 53 in 1982 the PO explained to me that the parking brake was disabled and why. Years later while working on a master cylinder I discovered the "locking levers" still in place and only the cable disconnected The Levers Must be Removed to offer any real protection!
Watkinsnv
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by Watkinsnv »

I can't remember if I was taught it or just started to do it because of a brake bleed down I once had on a Cessna 140A. But on a approach if I remember and in a cross wind condition I always pump the brakes to make sure they are going to be there when I need them. I also tap on them after a successful take off to stop the tire rotation. I'm pretty sure I was taught it though. I always wanted to have a parking brake and even rounded up the parts once to re hook it up. I have found there aren't very many aircaft I would ever trust to really use it. on run ups I always hold the the brakes with my feet. Lance
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GAHorn
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by GAHorn »

Most aircraft mfr's have abandoned recommendations to test brakes or stop wheel rotation while airborne. There are more possibilities of creating complications than of clearing them.

I recall many years ago when it was taught to test brake pressures before landing. I also recall several incidents in which aircraft were subequently landed with the brakes still applied. For one reason or another the aircraft were landed and the results were disastrous.
One scenario is stuck master cylinder pistons. Another is frozen brakes. (This happened to a crew I met two Christmases ago at Aspen. They'd taken off from a slush-covered runway and, in order to satisfy themselves that the ice and slush had been cleared from their wheels, they left their gear down in the slipstream for awhile longer than usual, and they operated their brakes several times. They then proceeded from GJT to ASE and on final, tested their brakes once again. When they landed, a wheel shattered upon touchdown because it was locked..... frozen to the brakes.)

Remember, disc brakes do not retract from the brake-disc after pressure is released. The brake linings remain in contact with the rotor/disc. If the brake piston becomes lodged in it's bore, or if it fails to release the pressure... the wheel will be braked on touchdown.

(There are too many variations in brake-designs for a one-fits-all scenario, but I have quit testing brakes inflight. If the wheels were rolling during lift-off..... they'll likely continue to do so upon touchdown...provided they haven't been locked up in the meantime.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
n3833v
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by n3833v »

I unhooked my cables and safety wired the levers so as not to move to lock position. I wasn't going to disassemble to remove pins and levers from master cylinder with the serrated shafts..

John
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Green Bean
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by Green Bean »

Our parking brake assembly, and all parts were removed in the first week after purchase 33 years ago. That was the recommendation from my mentor, Graham Mower, a Cessna 170 driver who had picked up his 170 at the factory in 1952. His 170, N2526D, probably still doesn't have one. When I replaced the instrument panel in 1982 the location for the parking brake lever was not addressed, nor installed, and was sign off by the local FISDO.
Robert Eilers
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by Robert Eilers »

I really appreciate this forum. I have been wondering, ever since I replaced the pucks on my clevelands, whetehr or not the pucks should remain in contact with the disc. Always thought that maybe I ahd reinstalled them incorrectly. Gahorn just cleared it up for me. I learn a great deal about my 170 just by monitoring this forum.
"You have to learn how to fall before you learn how to fly"
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GAHorn
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Re: Parking Brake

Post by GAHorn »

Mike Roe just PM'd me reminding me about another old issue regarding brakes. The 170 Book and the SRAM both talk about the failure modes of the serrated shafts on brake cylinders. All you guys who have the serrated shafts on your master cylinders need to start budgeting to get rid of them. They are failure prone, and should be swapped for smooth ones. (Simplest is to swap the entire cylinder.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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