N2865C wrote:I think Jody is right. The tabs are not used with the Scott 3200 installation. Scott calls for eye-bolts instead of the tabs. The Scott uses a spacer for the narrower springs. Last time I looked, that little spacer was about $100.00 (ouch). I have a copy of the Scott installation instructions for the 170 I can fax you if you need it.JTS wrote:Hey Rudy. To start, I believe the lug (No.1 in drawing) is actually one of the two tabs that attach the springs and chains to the rudder bellcrank(refer to page 28 No.14 in IPC).
jc
Tail wheel bolt- Scott
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
John
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
N2865C
"The only stupid question is one that wasn't asked"
-
rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
Whoa there, Rudy (and others.) Just to set the record straight:
The SCOTT drawing is Scott's proprietary info,and is their suggestion as to how the thing might be installed in a GENERIC installation.
The IPC is CESSNA's illustrated design-method of attaching the tailwheel and steering chains for the 170.
It appears we are speculating on what we think might be a good idea versus what Cessna actually designed for the installation. The "tab" or "lug" is standard Cessna. The eyebolts in the Scott drawing, while they certainly seem airworthy to me,...are not Cessna.
While the Scott drawing may be appealing, it would be at the very least a "minor" alteration, and if it is used the alteration should be documented in the aircraft logs.
Now back to Rudy's problem:
Rudy, your installation should be EXACTLY like the IPC as far as the spacer and bushing (items 4 and 3 in Fig 94, pg 155) go. I have that spacer in new/uninstalled condition in my part's bin at home and I'll be very happy to send it to you at a much more reasonable price than that already quoted. It MUST be in your installation to stabilize the Scott tailwheel against the correct 170 tailwheel leaf springs. The Scott tailwheel is designed to fit several aircraft and the 170's correct springs are narrower than the Scott assy, and therefore the spacer is part of the correct Scott 3200 installation.
(Moral of the story: When nothing else works,....try it like it was designed.)
The SCOTT drawing is Scott's proprietary info,and is their suggestion as to how the thing might be installed in a GENERIC installation.
The IPC is CESSNA's illustrated design-method of attaching the tailwheel and steering chains for the 170.
It appears we are speculating on what we think might be a good idea versus what Cessna actually designed for the installation. The "tab" or "lug" is standard Cessna. The eyebolts in the Scott drawing, while they certainly seem airworthy to me,...are not Cessna.
While the Scott drawing may be appealing, it would be at the very least a "minor" alteration, and if it is used the alteration should be documented in the aircraft logs.
Now back to Rudy's problem:
Rudy, your installation should be EXACTLY like the IPC as far as the spacer and bushing (items 4 and 3 in Fig 94, pg 155) go. I have that spacer in new/uninstalled condition in my part's bin at home and I'll be very happy to send it to you at a much more reasonable price than that already quoted. It MUST be in your installation to stabilize the Scott tailwheel against the correct 170 tailwheel leaf springs. The Scott tailwheel is designed to fit several aircraft and the 170's correct springs are narrower than the Scott assy, and therefore the spacer is part of the correct Scott 3200 installation.
(Moral of the story: When nothing else works,....try it like it was designed.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
-
David Sbur
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:43 pm
Scott tailwheel stuff...
Gang,
On link below for the Cessna 120-140 site, if you scroll down several comments after hitting it you'll find a Scott Installation diagram for 120, 140, 170's. It's called 'Scotttailwheelstuff.jpg.' Maybe this will help? It is free from the Scott folks.
I like George's comments on the eyebolts/tabs and how the chain connects. I am debating the recommended 'Scott' installation that is 'CAA' approved verses what Cessna designed. For my 3200 installation I currently use the tabs off the rudder horn and have concerns about the eyebolt recommendation. Am I illegal? Maybe. If you watch a 140 rudder horn there is a small amount of unfavorable torque applied on the eyebolt configuration from the rudder cables, which rather twists the horn somewhat slightly. Not a great design but legal, where have I heard that before?
The fellow below, Bill Waterrose, is the Scott 3200 guru from the company, FWIW. He'll send you diagrams, schematics, answer questions, etc.
Hope this adds to your info
Dave Sbur/Intl Cessna 120-140 Association
BILL WATERROSE
PRODUCT SPECIALIST
AVOX systems inc. (formally scott aviation)
PH: 716 686 1725
FAX: 716 681 1089
E MAIL: wwaterrose@avox.zodiac.com
Website: http://www.avoxsys.com
http://www.cessna120-140.org/forum/view ... ght=#14149
On link below for the Cessna 120-140 site, if you scroll down several comments after hitting it you'll find a Scott Installation diagram for 120, 140, 170's. It's called 'Scotttailwheelstuff.jpg.' Maybe this will help? It is free from the Scott folks.
I like George's comments on the eyebolts/tabs and how the chain connects. I am debating the recommended 'Scott' installation that is 'CAA' approved verses what Cessna designed. For my 3200 installation I currently use the tabs off the rudder horn and have concerns about the eyebolt recommendation. Am I illegal? Maybe. If you watch a 140 rudder horn there is a small amount of unfavorable torque applied on the eyebolt configuration from the rudder cables, which rather twists the horn somewhat slightly. Not a great design but legal, where have I heard that before?
The fellow below, Bill Waterrose, is the Scott 3200 guru from the company, FWIW. He'll send you diagrams, schematics, answer questions, etc.
Hope this adds to your info
Dave Sbur/Intl Cessna 120-140 Association
BILL WATERROSE
PRODUCT SPECIALIST
AVOX systems inc. (formally scott aviation)
PH: 716 686 1725
FAX: 716 681 1089
E MAIL: wwaterrose@avox.zodiac.com
Website: http://www.avoxsys.com
http://www.cessna120-140.org/forum/view ... ght=#14149
-
rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
I must already have the bushing- the bolt fits perfectly, but I'll check. However I don't have the correct spacer- could that be the problem ?
My "spacer" is that channel that fits over the spring.
George, does your spacer have a very shallow flat strip machined across its top ? Is it made of aluminum ? I have one of those but it looks bigger than the one (#4) on p. 154 of the IPC.
Rudy
My "spacer" is that channel that fits over the spring.
George, does your spacer have a very shallow flat strip machined across its top ? Is it made of aluminum ? I have one of those but it looks bigger than the one (#4) on p. 154 of the IPC.
Rudy
C-170B N4490B
Plantation Florida
(Based at North Perry Airport,
KHWO, Miramar FL)
Plantation Florida
(Based at North Perry Airport,
KHWO, Miramar FL)
My plane had an aluminum spacer that was cracked. I ordered a replacement from Wag-Aero and it was steel. So at some time or another they made a run of these out of aluminum. Also it had an oversize bolt that the shoulders fit perfectly without a bushing but the threaded portion was turned down so that it fit the standard hole size in spring. Looked to be a stronger set up to me. RC
51 Cessna 170A N1263D
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
[quote="gahorn"]Whoa there, Rudy (and others.) Just to set the record straight:
The SCOTT drawing is Scott's proprietary info,and is their suggestion as to how the thing might be installed in a GENERIC installation.
The IPC is CESSNA's illustrated design-method of attaching the tailwheel and steering chains for the 170.
................................................
quote]
Oh contrare George, check the TCDS:
" item 204 (b) Scott model 3200, steerable, swiveling (installed in accordance with Scott bulletin I-168) "
Scott bulletin I-168 (dated 4/8/49) is the drawing which shows the steering chains attached to the rudder bellcrank via eyebolts.
I have had my tailwheel steering rigged both ways. When I bought it, it was set up with the tabs riveted to the bellcrank. Couple years ago, I revamped it to use the eyebolts per the Scott drawing, then later set it back up using the tabs. Not much difference either way, with the possible exception of the twisting pressure exerted by the eyebolts that you mentioned.
To me it's dealer's choice, but to be strictly in compliance with the TCDS, the 3200 should be rigged using the eyebolts. I expect you will be modifying yours accordingly, before further flight.
Eric
The SCOTT drawing is Scott's proprietary info,and is their suggestion as to how the thing might be installed in a GENERIC installation.
The IPC is CESSNA's illustrated design-method of attaching the tailwheel and steering chains for the 170.
................................................
quote]
Oh contrare George, check the TCDS:
" item 204 (b) Scott model 3200, steerable, swiveling (installed in accordance with Scott bulletin I-168) "
Scott bulletin I-168 (dated 4/8/49) is the drawing which shows the steering chains attached to the rudder bellcrank via eyebolts.
I have had my tailwheel steering rigged both ways. When I bought it, it was set up with the tabs riveted to the bellcrank. Couple years ago, I revamped it to use the eyebolts per the Scott drawing, then later set it back up using the tabs. Not much difference either way, with the possible exception of the twisting pressure exerted by the eyebolts that you mentioned.
To me it's dealer's choice, but to be strictly in compliance with the TCDS, the 3200 should be rigged using the eyebolts. I expect you will be modifying yours accordingly, before further flight.
Eric
David Sbur, thanks for the comments on this subject. I read your post at your website and thought I'd offer one back to you.
You might consider using AN 115 cable shackles for use in attaching to your bellcrank/tabs. The shackles, being a better surface, take the wear that way and save the tabs and the bellcranks. It's what was done to my airplane many years ago during it's restoration and it's given great service with no troubles at all.
You are correct about Bill Waterrose. I've talked to him a couple of times over the years and he's a great "old timer". The only thing is, I believe he's forgotten more than most of us will ever know. When I contacted him for a copy of the U.S. Army Technical Manual (would you believe the Army had an overhaul manual for the Scott 3200?) he was oblivious to it, though. I'd hoped that Scott would at least have a copy of that document.
Thanks again for the input, and WELCOME.
You might consider using AN 115 cable shackles for use in attaching to your bellcrank/tabs. The shackles, being a better surface, take the wear that way and save the tabs and the bellcranks. It's what was done to my airplane many years ago during it's restoration and it's given great service with no troubles at all.
You are correct about Bill Waterrose. I've talked to him a couple of times over the years and he's a great "old timer". The only thing is, I believe he's forgotten more than most of us will ever know. When I contacted him for a copy of the U.S. Army Technical Manual (would you believe the Army had an overhaul manual for the Scott 3200?) he was oblivious to it, though. I'd hoped that Scott would at least have a copy of that document.
Thanks again for the input, and WELCOME.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
OK, here's another can of worms. Neither the IPC or Scott bulletin I-168 show the use of cable shackles as described. Does this admittedly minor (IMHO) mod have to be logged? The TCDS DOES say "in accordance with Scott bulleting I-168".gahorn wrote:...........................
You might consider using AN 115 cable shackles for use in attaching to your bellcrank/tabs. The shackles, being a better surface, take the wear that way and save the tabs and the bellcranks. It's what was done to my airplane many years ago during it's restoration and it's given great service with no troubles at all...................................
FWIW, my 170 also uses these shackles to attach the steering chains to the tailwheel arm, as well as to attach the springs to the rudder bellcrank. WAY better than those teardrop shaped connector clips, which I have seen fail numerous times.
Eric
-
rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
Greetings guys and thanks for all your very helpful information.
I believe I've solved the mystery of the loosening TW attachment bolt.
It was caused by wear on the aluminum spacer which I now replaced with a steel one. Yes, the spacer comes in two flavors- aluminum and steel and the aluminum one is known to wear !
After noting the looseness of the bolt, I removed the aluminum spacer,
which showed wear patterns resulting from the TW rotating around the moderately loose bolt. I replaced this spacer with a steel one which was originally on my airplane. Shortly after buyin my airplane some 4 1/2
years ago, I was experiencing problems with my TW. I replaced the entire TW assembly, large leaf spring, and attachment parts, with all new parts, which included an aluminum spacer. So I replaced a good steel spacer with a new inferior aluminum one.
In Wilmington, George and Gary (Ol'Gar) discovered that my tail wheel was loose and tightened the bolt. Later, I found the bolt loose once more and replaced it with a drilled one, a castellated nut and cotter key. I was puzzled when, in due course, this too came loose. I now believe it was due to the aluminum spacer wearing.
Again, many thanks to you all,
Rudy
I believe I've solved the mystery of the loosening TW attachment bolt.
It was caused by wear on the aluminum spacer which I now replaced with a steel one. Yes, the spacer comes in two flavors- aluminum and steel and the aluminum one is known to wear !
After noting the looseness of the bolt, I removed the aluminum spacer,
which showed wear patterns resulting from the TW rotating around the moderately loose bolt. I replaced this spacer with a steel one which was originally on my airplane. Shortly after buyin my airplane some 4 1/2
years ago, I was experiencing problems with my TW. I replaced the entire TW assembly, large leaf spring, and attachment parts, with all new parts, which included an aluminum spacer. So I replaced a good steel spacer with a new inferior aluminum one.
In Wilmington, George and Gary (Ol'Gar) discovered that my tail wheel was loose and tightened the bolt. Later, I found the bolt loose once more and replaced it with a drilled one, a castellated nut and cotter key. I was puzzled when, in due course, this too came loose. I now believe it was due to the aluminum spacer wearing.
Again, many thanks to you all,
Rudy
C-170B N4490B
Plantation Florida
(Based at North Perry Airport,
KHWO, Miramar FL)
Plantation Florida
(Based at North Perry Airport,
KHWO, Miramar FL)