It's time for a panel upgrade and I'm having trouble deciding how far to go. I plan to keep my panel "original" with its newly rebuilt old style big AI and DG (dual venturi driven). The goal is to end up with an efficient panel suitable for occasional IFR. My home airport has an NDB approach, and a GPS approach.
Here's the rest of the nav/com panel:
Radair 200 com (360 channel - must go)
Radair 200 Nav & VOR head
Terra Nav/Com with digital remote CDI
Apollo 618 Loran that works with Terra CDI
Narco audio panel with marker lights
Narco AT50 transponser with mode C
Garmin Pilot III on the glareshield - my primary nav unit.
I'm considering the full range, from a Garmin 430 to a used ADF. The Garmin minimizes panel space (and maybe power demands) but requires 28 day updates to be IFR legal. The ADF is simple and fairly cheap to buy, and requires no updates to be legal.
I also plan to buy a handheld nav/com anyway for emergency purposes.
Any opinions out there from IFR 170 users?
IFR panel choices
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
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Re: IFR panel choices
What. Are you kidding? We 170 drivers don't have opinions.beeliner wrote:Any opinions out there from IFR 170 users?
As with many subjects we've gone round and round on this before so I'll give my short version.
I'd look for a used Garmin 155xl or 300xl if you need the radio. You'll also need an annunciator panel to make it IFR. The Garmin should be able to drive your Terra indicator. Going with these units you will save $$$ and panel space over a 430.
Yes you should have the 28 day cycle but if you know through other means that the approach you are using has not been changed from the one in the data base it would still be legal to use. Except for one thing. For every IFR certified GPS installation there is an flight manual written and approved. In most cases people copy the Garmin sample exactly. Guess what. Garmin wants you to update every 28 days so that's the way the manual sample was written and once it's approved for your aircraft with that verbage then you will have to update to be legal. My approved flight manual supplement for my Garmin 155 does not have that verbage.
If you have room for the ADF then put one in. They can be had very vary cheaply. I don't have one because for the most part in the North East where I fly there aren't many working NDBs.
OK George, It's your turn to tell us about the King KLN88
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
FYI there is a Garmin155xl with the required annunciator panel and new antenna currentyl at $800 on a popular auction site. An annunciator panel by itself, new is $800 so this could be a good deal. I'll bet it goes for less than $1500. Big difference when compairing it to a Garmin 430.
FYI the Garmin 300xl is a direct slide in replacement for the 155xl with only the need to wire the additional nav side of the 300xl if you had one of the 155xl's and decided you need the com.
FYI the Garmin 300xl is a direct slide in replacement for the 155xl with only the need to wire the additional nav side of the 300xl if you had one of the 155xl's and decided you need the com.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Anyone have any experience with the Val INS 422, or their earlier ILS 400? At about $1950, it looks like an economical alternative to the $3100 Narco 122D-- a self-contained stand-alone radio/indicator nav unit with VOR/localizer/ILS approach capabilities. One of these, plus a com radio & transponder of course,should make a for a workable minimalist (read economical) instrument platform. Maybe add a handheld GPS for "situational awareness".
Eric
Eric
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
If you are actually considering a Garmin 430 (and can afford it) then by ALL MEANS do it! It's clearly a first-rate, all-around solution to the problem. (The database updates are not required for the VOR/LOC/ILS use of the unit, although any serious IFR pilot would want a current database IN ADDITION to paper charts.)
Put in a newer transponder (the old AT-50's are OK but quickly running out of repair parts and many of them are actually condemned with an AD note) such as the Garmin or the Narco AT-150 series and a backup com and you'll be in excellent shape with the GPS-III as a back up.
ADFs are curios/relics that are being phased out even faster than VOR's and my beloved KLN-88 is only good for backup work IMHO due to it's limitations on approach. (Loran approaches are no longer authorized, so the KLN-88 is technically only legal for enroute and terminal....although it certainly could do in a pinch for a backup approach overlay. I'd not rely on it except for a non-precision approach tho'.)
The KLN-88 is a fantastic VFR/light IFR radio that is easy to install, cheap to buy,...but not a serious, hard-IFR unit anymore. (As if the 170 would be!)
Put in a newer transponder (the old AT-50's are OK but quickly running out of repair parts and many of them are actually condemned with an AD note) such as the Garmin or the Narco AT-150 series and a backup com and you'll be in excellent shape with the GPS-III as a back up.
ADFs are curios/relics that are being phased out even faster than VOR's and my beloved KLN-88 is only good for backup work IMHO due to it's limitations on approach. (Loran approaches are no longer authorized, so the KLN-88 is technically only legal for enroute and terminal....although it certainly could do in a pinch for a backup approach overlay. I'd not rely on it except for a non-precision approach tho'.)
The KLN-88 is a fantastic VFR/light IFR radio that is easy to install, cheap to buy,...but not a serious, hard-IFR unit anymore. (As if the 170 would be!)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Thanks for good suggestions. I can afford the Garmin 430 because of all the money I'm saving by polishing instead of painting!? 
George, I missed the 1 in the trx- I have a Narco AT150 TSO.
The 430 would be my first choice but it's hard to spend the 10G for a panel mount if there is a simpler alternative- and my III will be setting on the glare shield, tuned in anyway.
Does anyone have experience with the GX55R (IImorrow/UPSAT/Garmin) ? It's advertised as a slide-in replacement for the Apollo series. My Apollo 618 already outputs to the Terra CDI. I should "theoretically" just need to replace my long wire antenna with a GPS antenna. I've seen these advertised in the 2G+ range.
George, I missed the 1 in the trx- I have a Narco AT150 TSO.
The 430 would be my first choice but it's hard to spend the 10G for a panel mount if there is a simpler alternative- and my III will be setting on the glare shield, tuned in anyway.
Does anyone have experience with the GX55R (IImorrow/UPSAT/Garmin) ? It's advertised as a slide-in replacement for the Apollo series. My Apollo 618 already outputs to the Terra CDI. I should "theoretically" just need to replace my long wire antenna with a GPS antenna. I've seen these advertised in the 2G+ range.
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Harold Holiman
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:54 pm
GX55
I have the GX55 and love it. I replaced the Apollo with it over three years ago and it has performed flawlessly. My loran antenna was mounted on the top of the airplane so the only change necessary was to change the antenna which had the same footprint as the gps antenna. Don't even have to change the antenna lead. If your loran antenna is on the bottom you will have to remount the antenna on the top. No other modifications necessary. Really just a slide in replacement. I don't have the annunciator as my flying is vfr but the unit is ifr certifiable. I highly recommend it.
A&P made a logbook entry which reads as follows: Removed Marrow II Apollo 604 Loran Ser. No. xxxx from mounting tray and installed UPS Technologies Marrow II Apollo GX55 GPS Ser. No. xxxx. Slide in pin compatible installation as per manufacturers instructions. No change in weight and balance. Removed Loran antenna and installed GPS antenna as per manufacturers instructions, same location and footprint. No change in weight and balance. A&P xxxxx xxxxx
I had the complimentary FAA ramp check at the Shelbyville Convention and the inspector said this entry was fine. Some local people had told me they thought I had to have a 337 but UPS had told me and my A&P only the log book entry was required and the FAA inspector agreed.
Harold H
N92CP
A&P made a logbook entry which reads as follows: Removed Marrow II Apollo 604 Loran Ser. No. xxxx from mounting tray and installed UPS Technologies Marrow II Apollo GX55 GPS Ser. No. xxxx. Slide in pin compatible installation as per manufacturers instructions. No change in weight and balance. Removed Loran antenna and installed GPS antenna as per manufacturers instructions, same location and footprint. No change in weight and balance. A&P xxxxx xxxxx
I had the complimentary FAA ramp check at the Shelbyville Convention and the inspector said this entry was fine. Some local people had told me they thought I had to have a 337 but UPS had told me and my A&P only the log book entry was required and the FAA inspector agreed.
Harold H
N92CP
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jon s blocker
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:56 pm
Beeliner
We are in the final stages of putting in a new panel, along with a rebuild of our '53 B model. We went with a complete new panel to get a center stack instead of having to place radios that are scattered on the panel. We have gone with a Garmin 430, KX155 w/gs, garmin 340 audio panel, and KT76C transponder. Although a 170 should not be considered a serious IFR platform, we opted for the radios we did, so we have that capability, and we ran into a great deal on our radios. If you are serious about looking at a 430, do it. There are good used ones out there that have been traded in for an upgrade to the bigger Garmins. Unfortunately we aren't done with our rebuild yet, so a practical report on the use of the radios are not possible yet, but we are looking forward to using them in a number of trips we have planned. Good luck with your panel.
Jon
We are in the final stages of putting in a new panel, along with a rebuild of our '53 B model. We went with a complete new panel to get a center stack instead of having to place radios that are scattered on the panel. We have gone with a Garmin 430, KX155 w/gs, garmin 340 audio panel, and KT76C transponder. Although a 170 should not be considered a serious IFR platform, we opted for the radios we did, so we have that capability, and we ran into a great deal on our radios. If you are serious about looking at a 430, do it. There are good used ones out there that have been traded in for an upgrade to the bigger Garmins. Unfortunately we aren't done with our rebuild yet, so a practical report on the use of the radios are not possible yet, but we are looking forward to using them in a number of trips we have planned. Good luck with your panel.
Jon