Flaps for TO and Landing (Wheel Landings article)

[GAHorn]

What Flap Setting would you choose for Best Angle of Climb - 1955 170B, 8043 Prop?
On take off over Cottonwood Trees?

Is the airplane RED or Green?

[N1478D]

What Flap Setting would you choose for Best Angle of Climb - 1955 170B, 8043 Prop?
On take off over Cottonwood Trees?

Is the airplane RED or Green?

OK! Now some of this arriving after dark is making sense! George uses those big flaps to drop in to a short field with trees at each end. Then, when it's time to leave he studies the situation, looks at the trees, and then pulls a Beck out and drinks it. Then he looks at the trees, and pulls another Beck out. Then he looks at the trees, reaches behind the back seat and pulls out that emergency gear bag we have read about a few times. He reaches in the bag and pulls out his Poulan chainsaw, and then goes and cuts the necessary trees down. By this time, the Becks have worn off and George is off.

[GAHorn]

OK, I admit it, Joe! Some of the BEST things in life are GREEN!
Becks comes in GREEN bottles, and Poulan chain saws are GREEN!

[beeliner]

I guess I sparked this debate with the suggestion that a balked full flap landing involves an "immediate" flap adjustment. I made the assumption that there was an option for the go-around but that the strip was short with obstacles (otherwise why full flaps ?). Immediate doesn't mean to rush, just get on with it without calling a board meeting. After all, I don't see any essential advantage to use 40 degrees of flaps other than perhaps a soft field landing. 20 degrees has a lot of advantages:
1. There is only a 2 mph difference in stall speed.
2. With 20 degrees you can still safely use a slip if desired and remove it quickly, giving the same descent angle as 40 degrees while needed. Slips are to be avoided when using full flaps.
3. More braking is available upon touchdown prior to reducing flaps
4. You can begin the go-around and get climb results immediately upon adding full power. Then you can decide if you want less flaps for climb.

[GAHorn]

I guess I sparked this debate with the suggestion that a balked full flap landing involves an "immediate" flap adjustment. I made the assumption that there was an option for the go-around but that the strip was short with obstacles (otherwise why full flaps ?). Immediate doesn't mean to rush, just get on with it without calling a board meeting. After all, I don't see any essential advantage to use 40 degrees of flaps other than perhaps a soft field landing. 20 degrees has a lot of advantages:
1. There is only a 2 mph difference in stall speed.
2. With 20 degrees you can still safely use a slip if desired and remove it quickly, giving the same descent angle as 40 degrees while needed. Slips are to be avoided when using full flaps.
3. More braking is available upon touchdown prior to reducing flaps
4. You can begin the go-around and get climb results immediately upon adding full power. Then you can decide if you want less flaps for climb.

Well, hopefully at least, it's a friendly, educational debate.
As you know, the drag of full flaps is more accurately described when we remember that drag increases/decreases as the SQUARE of velocity. So this means that when attempting a truly short-field landing, the full flaps will get rid of a lot of "float" ...just when you want to...during round-out/flare. It also allows a steeper descent, as we all know. (And the steep, constant angle descent is more accurately flown than the drag-it-in and chop/drop-it-in. That's why your instructor taught it that way....at least he should have.)
It's a personal preference perhaps. The idea of the slip with partial flaps is an interesting one. It should certainly increase the descent angle if one doesn't allow the speed to increase.
Re: item 4: If you've waited until "then" to decide which configuration you'll use for go-around.....then you've violated an important safety consideration when flying airplanes: Plan ahead!

Reading between the lines, I'll venture that Mike's previous comments perhaps are a reflection of his thoughts/habits on this subject , which might be: If you plan ahead, then a go-around is not an emergency action,....it's a planned manuever....so nothing needs to happen "suddenly". (Apologies to Mike, if I've seemed to put words in his mouth.) Carrying such planning attitude a bit farther, I'd add: ... If it is planned for, then quickly acting upon the plan is not hazardous...it's merely efficient. Perhaps that might explain the seeming difference in the way we've perceived this thread.

The best example of how even the best plans can go awry is landing at my place after dark. It's amazing how a deer bounding out of the dark across the runway can upset the best laid plans of mice and men.
Converting a descending, full flap, power-off, decreasing airspeed round-out/flare....into a "balls-to-the-wall" Vx ascent most assuredly requires getting those flaps up to T.O. NOW!

[beeliner]

Good summary George- and I agree with all your points. My instructor did teach every possible combination of landings, including pre-planned go-around procedures depending on the circumstances. That was in 1969, but I still practice all varieties, including full flaps. I guess everyone has their own interpretation of immediately, suddenly, quickly, promptly, etc. Instead of "then decide" I should have stated "then select" since how low and how far down the runway may make a difference in the flap choice. In a tight situation with obstacles at the runway end, I would still prefer starting my baulked landing from 20 degrees flaps, minimum airspeed slip approach versus 40 degrees flaps. Mike is right that you can stop the descent before retracting flaps, but at gross weight and density altitude the climb is next to nothing til the speed is up and the flaps are reduced. Your example of the deer is a perfect sample of the need for a go around, even during a "perfect" approach, as is any other runway incursion by man, machine, or beast. Thanks for your insights.

[GAHorn]

Here's a picture of Joe, green with envy at the short field performance of a B-model. >>>>>

(And here he is over his cruise speeds.) >>>>>>

[N1478D]

Here's a picture of Joe, green with envy at the short field performance of a B-model. >>>>>

(And here he is over his cruise speeds.) >>>>>>

I have not ever flown a ragwing, but just a couple of days ago, Stu who has flown everything on the planet and spent two years restoring his 170A was telling me of the fine flying qualitiies of the ragwing. Was saying how it feels like a bigger 140 with excellent handeling characteristics. Made me think of Eric, looking for a B, bought a ragwing to hold him over, and that was years and many hours ago. I have flown B's, and they are fine aircraft. But, after this many hours in the A, only the 52 would be an easy transition, not that all of the other years aren't great planes. It would be hard to give up the fully opening cowl. It would be nearly impossible to give up the low panel that offers such GREAT forward visibility. I was searching for an A because the straight wing is what I like, and found 78D before any good examples of the ragwing or B showed up. Of course, being able to fly circles around George's old slow beat up airplane makes it even better.

[Joe Moilanen]

I agree with the reasoning behind landing with 20 degrees of flaps. I can't remember when the last time was when I've landed with anything other than 20 in the 16 yrs that I've owned my B model. A "safe" slip for decent adustment is at your fingertips, your at the best setting for go-around, and with good airspeed control you can still roll to a stop in 500' or less in grass without touching the brakes.

Joe Moilanen
4518C
http://www.moitek-infrared.com

[jmbrwn]

I've only got about 40hrs on my 'new' plane, so am still in the learning phase...mine is a 170A with the 'soft' gear. I find it almost impossible to make a good wheel landing in anything other than light/calm winds. Also during mid-day heat with the thermal bumps...impossible. If I drop it in from one inch....bounce! Then I recover with a 3-pt. During calm conditions, I can roll them on. I usually land with 20 degrees of flaps also, although last evening I tried 30 and it worked out. I'm tempted to stick to 3-pts in anything other than calm winds. Anyone else have this problem? or should I keep practicing?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I can't remember when the last time was when I've landed with anything other than 20 in the 16 yrs that I've owned my B model.

Wow Joe. Just because the aircraft has more flaps doesn't mean you have to use it but to NEVER use it. What's that all about? You do realize your aircraft has 2 doors. You aren't all climbing in from the same side are you.

I usually land with 20 degrees of flaps also, although last evening I tried 30 and it worked out. I'm tempted to stick to 3-pts in anything other than calm winds. Anyone else have this problem? or should I keep practicing?

Jim, I'm sure you realize your small A model flaps and their position have no relation to a B model flap and it's position. After flying my B model and using flaps then flying a friends A model, I wonder why I wonder why I bother to put those small flaps down.
I have the same gear as you and like you tend to bounce wheel landings so I virtually never wheel land and don't practice it to get better. Keep practicing, you will get better.

[doug8082a]

I've only got about 40hrs on my 'new' plane, so am still in the learning phase...mine is a 170A with the 'soft' gear. I find it almost impossible to make a good wheel landing in anything other than light/calm winds. Also during mid-day heat with the thermal bumps...impossible. If I drop it in from one inch....bounce! Then I recover with a 3-pt. During calm conditions, I can roll them on. I usually land with 20 degrees of flaps also, although last evening I tried 30 and it worked out. I'm tempted to stick to 3-pts in anything other than calm winds. Anyone else have this problem? or should I keep practicing?

My '52 has the original landing gear and I wheel land about 70% of the time. Keep practicing! More often than not, the wind at my airport is NOT down the runway and the surrounding trees make for some last minute bumps. I too shared your frustration, but I wanted to get the hang of wheel landings. Now it's almost all I do - especially on windy/gusty days.

Hang in there and keep practicing. Once you get the hang of it... KEEP PRACTICING. One thing i found early on was the the skill of wheel landing was the first thing to atrophy if I wasn't able to fly for a while. Then I'd have to get back in shape all over again.

Good luck... you'll get it eventually.

[N1478D]

Doug is right! Keep practicing. One day, it will not matter what conditions, you will grease it on with no bounce. But, you still have to go out and practice even then. Most likely you will get to the point where you much prefer wheel landings than 3 pointers.

[AR Dave]

The Complete Taildragger Pilot
by Harvey S. Plourde

[doug8082a]

An excellent resource. The late Mr. Plourde was a 170 owner as well.