Flaps for TO and Landing (Wheel Landings article)

[Stan_Lindholm]

[quote="zero.one.victor"]First of all, 8782A, tell me more about the guy's 15,000 hours of tailwheel time. Wow! Musta been DC-3 or Beech 18 freighter time, eh?

Yes, his tailwheel time is mostly in Beech 18's and DC-3's (which they almost ALWAYS wheel landed...) Also in Ag Cats, J-3's and anything in between. Want to hear something really funny? When I first bought my airplane, the insurance company wanted $150 to add him as a named pilot to my policy because he didn't have 10 hours in a 170!!! Can you imagine? I had lots of total time, ATP, etc. but little tailwheel or "Make and Model" time back then. But I think I was the much greater risk flying the airplane than he! Oh well, don't get me started on aircraft insurance -- I was out of a flying job once upon a time and went to work for an aircraft insurance company. Buy me a few beers some time and I'll tell you some stories....

BTW, I made two nice wheel landings today. One on a longish paved runway with no flaps, the second on a shortish grass runway with 30 flaps ( mostly out of respect for George!)

Cheers,

[rudymantel]

Here's my $.02 worth- I almost always make wheel landings. With little or no wind I use full flaps wth my B model. With moderate wind and light cross wind I use 30 degrees. In both cases I come over the fence around 60-65 mph. With gusty winds or brisk crosswinds I use no flaps. Without flaps, the approach must be shallower and the nose held higher to reduce speed. No flap landings are actually easier but, as George pointed out, use more runway. I never use 10 or 20 degres for landing as those settings increase lift more than drag and that you don't need when landing.
Rudy

[N170BP]

What Rudy said, plus I like to "dump the flaps" to zero (from whatever
setting above zero I had selected) as soon as I determine I'm
on terra firma and have it sorted out directionally. This
kills the excess lift generated by the flaps, and slight
forward pressure on the yoke plants the mains, decreases
the angle of attack, gives you more braking effectiveness and
lessens the chance of a gust of wind putting you 10 feet back
into the air!

Which, by the way, is kind of a common-place thing with my 170 with
the Sportsman STOL kit on it (as a result of the increased wing area).
Just when you think you have it all sorted out, a 5 or 10 knot gust of
wind puts you back into the air again and you get to start all over.
It doesn't seem to matter much what your speed is on approach
(it flies at 35mph anyway), any decent gust simply makes it fly again.
Sometimes I think my 170 is kinda like an all metal Taylorcraft (too
much wing area, not enough weight).

[rudymantel]

Yes, dumping flaps is a good idea for the reasons Bela mentioned. I think it also helps rudder effectiveness.
Rudy

[AR Dave]

Joe N1478D, that sure caught my attention yesterday when the news reported a small plane down in Joe Poole Lake, Grand Prarie TX.
Glad to see it wasn't you!

[N1478D]

THANKS Dave,

As you know, Joe Pool lake is just south of GPM. As much as I fly over it, I have never seen a seaplane on it. News described it as a small seaplane. So it might be a homebuilt. He was doing practice water landings and his last one was with the wheels down and he flipped and sank. Think it said he is from Coppell. He looked ok, but he was wet sitting on the shore looking out at where you could see the submerged airplane.

Another plane went down trying to land at Lakeway down by Austin. The news described it as a Cessna twin with two out of three fatalities on board. He called with engine trouble.

There is an airport west of Ft Worth and the Lakeway area that both have had an incredible number of crashes in recent times. Wonder why the crashes would be so numerous around certain spots? The Ft Worth area has plenty of options for off field emergency landings. The Lakeway area has a large golf course, but basically, the area is trees and a lake.

[AR Dave]

Sounds like a week in Alaska!
We've got missing planes now and I guess most locals know that Marty Palmer (Wicks and BJ's Mechanic) had a fatal crash a few weeks ago at Wolf Lake.

[beeliner]

All good advice. I agree with Rudy on almost always making [tail-low]wheel landings, for the many reasons everyone listed. But I do prefer landing with 20 degrees of flaps. It lowers the nose as well as the speed, increases the descent angle, and if a last minute go-around is needed, there's no immediate flap change needed.

[mvivion]

I would respectfully point out that a 170 with full flaps will climb. There is no real need for an "immediate" flap change, even in a go around.

Cessna flaps have gotten this bad rap for a long time to the point where Cessna no longer offers the 40 degree position on their new airplanes, which is too bad.

Go out there, at gross weight, and do a full flap go around, and instead of immediately trying to get the flaps up, simply fly the airplane for a little while with full flaps.

I'll admit that on a hot day in Leadville, it won't work well. But in most conditions that we encounter, a full flap go around is really not dangerous at all.

You do, however, have to fly the airplane.

Any time I'm doing a full flap go around, I set full power (which means carb heat to cold, by the way) and take a breath to stabilize the airplane, even if it's level. THEN, I reach for the flap handle, and reduce the flap setting to a better setting for climb.

In most situations in aircraft, being in a hurry isn't necessarily the best plan.


That said, there's also nothing wrong with using 20 flaps for a lot of landings, but you are losing one of the real advantages of the Cessna aircraft if you don't occasionally use the full flap setting.

Mike Vivion

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Oh yeah I definately concure with the full flap go-around. I've got about 20hrs in mine now over the last month, I went through a learning curve with an instructor during the first ten hours, and I've gone through a similar learning curve after I kicked him out of the plane.

So about three or four flights ago I made use of the full flap go-around after I bounced hard. My instructor always had me trying to save it, but now I prefer to just go around. I still can't believe how bad this plane wants to fly! A smooth transition to full power and I was floating just out of ground effect. I just very slowly start letting the flap handle down to the third notch, and then down to the second after the speed is over 60mph. Then it just floats up to pattern altitude with 20 degrees of flaps. I love this plane. The 172 rental plane I was flying felt like a pregnant cow compared to this thing, I've done full flap go-arounds in that but it just feels fat, draggy, on the verge of a stall, and want's to put it's nose up hard. Maybe it's just an ownership thing the 172 probably isn't a bad plane, but it didn't give me goose bumps of excitement on the way out to the airport like my 170 does.

[GAHorn]

I would respectfully point out that a 170 with full flaps will climb. There is no real need for an "immediate" flap change, even in a go around.

Cessna flaps have gotten this bad rap for a long time to the point where Cessna no longer offers the 40 degree position on their new airplanes, which is too bad.

Go out there, at gross weight, and do a full flap go around, and instead of immediately trying to get the flaps up, simply fly the airplane for a little while with full flaps.

I'll admit that on a hot day in Leadville, it won't work well. But in most conditions that we encounter, a full flap go around is really not dangerous at all.

You do, however, have to fly the airplane.

Any time I'm doing a full flap go around, I set full power (which means carb heat to cold, by the way) and take a breath to stabilize the airplane, even if it's level. THEN, I reach for the flap handle, and reduce the flap setting to a better setting for climb.

In most situations in aircraft, being in a hurry isn't necessarily the best plan.


That said, there's also nothing wrong with using 20 flaps for a lot of landings, but you are losing one of the real advantages of the Cessna aircraft if you don't occasionally use the full flap setting.

Mike Vivion

I don't share your optimism, Mike. As a CFI I teach all goarounds must first add power, then select the aircraft's climb configuration (which is ALWAYS T.O. flap settings. No performance charts for this aircraft allow full flaps for climb. If the pilot will pitch up at the same rate as flaps are raised no loss of altitude will occur.....the only thing which will occur will be a reduction of drag and an increase of climb. (This is provided one isn't below stall speed,...in which case your option for go-around was already compromised.)
The reason late-model Cessnas removed the 40-degree flap setting had nothing to do with go-arounds other than to improve rejected landing climb performance in order to certificate the aircraft to a higher gross weight. In other words, it allowed a gross wt. increase on PAPER and helpd aircraft sales. The airplane with full flaps is a dog on go-arounds and at some density altitudes will result in a continued descent....not a "go around". (There was also another reason Cessna limited full flaps to less than 40 in later 172's: it allowed them to widen the cabin slightly by redesigning/reducing the strength of the doorposts.)
I strongly recommend everyone 1) set maximum power 2) raise flaps to a T.O./Climb setting , and 3) utilize Vx until obstacles are cleared.

[mvivion]

George,

We are not in disagreement on this. What I said is apply full power (and I emphasized that it should be FULL power-I've seen lots of folks apply sorta full power, till I remind them that carb heat robs the engine of a lot of power), TAKE A DEEP BREATH, and THEN start raising the flaps. I did not suggest climbing with full flaps, nor did I say that Cessna says you can or should.

As I read your message, I don't see anything different from what I'm suggesting. I don't suggest that you try to climb with full flaps, but my point was simply that a lot of people try to hurry the process, and if you are close to the ground, it is quite possible to fly it into the ground while reaching for the flap handle, if you're in a rush.

I simply objected to the notion that one must "immediately" reduce the flap setting on a go around.

I concur (and did note) that at high density altitudes the airplane may not even hold altitude with full flaps, but that's gonna be pretty hot and pretty high.

Here's what I teach students about go arounds: First, STOP the descent!!! If you stop the descent, you now have time to configure the airplane and initiate a climb (unless, of course, you have a tree staring you in the face, in which case you are in a one way strip anyway, and shouldn't be doing a go around). Stopping the descent can almost always be done with full flaps. That only takes a second or two, and once accomplished (or in the unlikely event that it isn't happening) its time to raise the flaps.

Your comment that the flaps should be reset to a takeoff setting for a go around could be mis-interpreted as well, since NO flaps is an approved and even recommended takeoff flap setting. I don't think anyone would recommend going direct from full flaps to zero flaps in one fell swoop.

Again, my comment was reference the immediacy of the flap retraction, not really the process or sequence of events.

I also recommend best angle of climb only if there's an obstacle to clear, and it's close. Best rate is a much safer speed for most circumstances. At best angle, if the engine hiccups, you may be in a world of hurt, close to the ground. If there's an obstacle close at hand, of course best angle is the best deal. But, again, that's just an elaboration of the same thing you are recommending.

Mike Vivion

[AR Dave]

What Flap Setting would you choose for Best Angle of Climb - 1955 170B, 8043 Prop?
On take off over Cottonwood Trees?

[rudymantel]

I enjoy doing touch & go's with my plane- I always add full power and then raise the flaps to TO configuration, as George says. Works much better than the other way 'round.
Rudy

[GAHorn]

George,

We are not in disagreement on this. What I said is apply full power (and I emphasized that it should be FULL power-I've seen lots of folks apply sorta full power, till I remind them that carb heat robs the engine of a lot of power), TAKE A DEEP BREATH, and THEN start raising the flaps. I did not suggest climbing with full flaps, nor did I say that Cessna says you can or should.

As I read your message, I don't see anything different from what I'm suggesting. I don't suggest that you try to climb with full flaps, but my point was simply that a lot of people try to hurry the process, and if you are close to the ground, it is quite possible to fly it into the ground while reaching for the flap handle, if you're in a rush.

I simply objected to the notion that one must "immediately" reduce the flap setting on a go around.

I concur (and did note) that at high density altitudes the airplane may not even hold altitude with full flaps, but that's gonna be pretty hot and pretty high.

Here's what I teach students about go arounds: First, STOP the descent!!! If you stop the descent, you now have time to configure the airplane and initiate a climb (unless, of course, you have a tree staring you in the face, in which case you are in a one way strip anyway, and shouldn't be doing a go around). Stopping the descent can almost always be done with full flaps. That only takes a second or two, and once accomplished (or in the unlikely event that it isn't happening) its time to raise the flaps.

Your comment that the flaps should be reset to a takeoff setting for a go around could be mis-interpreted as well, since NO flaps is an approved and even recommended takeoff flap setting. I don't think anyone would recommend going direct from full flaps to zero flaps in one fell swoop.

Again, my comment was reference the immediacy of the flap retraction, not really the process or sequence of events.

I also recommend best angle of climb only if there's an obstacle to clear, and it's close. Best rate is a much safer speed for most circumstances. At best angle, if the engine hiccups, you may be in a world of hurt, close to the ground. If there's an obstacle close at hand, of course best angle is the best deal. But, again, that's just an elaboration of the same thing you are recommending.

Mike Vivion

RE: "Your comment that the flaps should be reset to a takeoff setting for a go around could be mis-interpreted as well, since NO flaps is an approved and even recommended takeoff flap setting. I don't think anyone would recommend going direct from full flaps to zero flaps in one fell swoop."

I recommend it in "one fell swoop" ....IF you are above the flaps up stalling speed of 58 TIAS.* There's no reason to have a drag device like flaps hanging out there when attempting a climb if it's not necessary. It will only hurt your climb. The Zero Flaps and the Flaps/10 or 20 settings are "approved" for T.O./Climb and should be achieved as rapidly as permissible. Any delay beyond that necessary to maintain aircraft control is hurtful to climb performance.
The stalling speed for Flaps up is 58, for Flaps-10/20 is 54, and for Flaps Full is 52 mph. If you have speeds greater than those, there is no harm (and there is real benefit) to raising the flaps to the lesser settings as quickly as consistent with aircraft control.
* Keep in mind that at density altitudes above 4K that flaps 10/20 will hurt your climb performance. (See the T.O. performance charts) In such cases your thoughts prior to landing should be "in case of go-around I will use an approach speed greater than 58 until I commit to a "no go-around" mentality. This is to stay above the Flaps/Zero stalling speed.
If you're approching the short strip where landing distance is a real concern, most of us will abandon any plan for a go-around farther out on final and commit to a landing-no-matter-what. In that case, allowing airspeed to decay below T.O. Flap settings is a valid part of the plan.

RE: "I also recommend best angle of climb only if there's an obstacle to clear, and it's close. Best rate is a much safer speed for most circumstances. At best angle, if the engine hiccups, you may be in a world of hurt, close to the ground. If there's an obstacle close at hand, of course best angle is the best deal. "

But what IS best rate? According to the performance charts best rate is 76 mph....with FLAPS UP. If that is your recommendation (to use best rate) then by necessity the flaps MUST be full UP. (Or you're not getting best rate!)
What is best angle? It's 67 mph...with FLAPS 20. In such case your flaps must be 20. I still like my previous recommendation. Decide PRIOR to runway commitment which flap setting/speed you will use for a go-around, then when the decision point is reached and go around is decided: Max power, Flaps T.O., Speed maintain until obstacles are cleared or desired altitude is reached.