I called Alcor today and spoke to "Rick". Currently there is no TCP available. Alcor has none and they have not shipped to their distributors such as Spruce for over 6 months. They plan on producing a 2000 gallon batch as soon as they can, but Rick told me that Alcor just found out this morning that Shell has stopped producing one of the solvents used in TCP. Before Alcor can commence production, they have to find out what was in this solvent and produce it themselves. He indicated that it would be 1-2 months, but he didn't sound real confident. Anyone have a bootleg quart to $ell?
Bruce
TCP Update
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
TCP Update
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
Bruce, I've got a supply of it. Do you intend to be down this way anytime soon? (Like maybe the Jan. 17 fly in at Dry Creek? If not, maybe Joe will make it and it'll not evaporate before he can get it flown back to the Dallas area.) 
Rudy: The short story is this:
100LL has lead which is bad for valves (not good,...bad. It contributes to sticking of valves and rings.) It's also bad for lower units and bad for spark plugs where it accumulates as glass-like fouling. The spark plugs require aggressive cleaning at inspection times which reduces the spark plug life. It also contributes to sludge in the crankcase.
TCP converts lead to lead phosphate at the moment of combustion and then it's blown it out the exhaust instead of sticking to plugs, pistons, valve stems and exhaust pipes (where it actually builds up to the point of reducing the inside diameter of the exhaust system and contributes to corrosion of the exhaust system. I've saved my old 300-hour exhaust risers that I replaced due to lead buildup inside them. It's an amazing amount of reduction in size that occurs in only 300 hours. It's so hard, you can't remove it from the pipes.)
The exhaust residue does not stick so tenaciously to the cowling with TCP useage either, and that which does stick is similar to baby powder and more easily wipes away with a rag. It saves money and time in terms of maintenance.
Rudy: The short story is this:
100LL has lead which is bad for valves (not good,...bad. It contributes to sticking of valves and rings.) It's also bad for lower units and bad for spark plugs where it accumulates as glass-like fouling. The spark plugs require aggressive cleaning at inspection times which reduces the spark plug life. It also contributes to sludge in the crankcase.
TCP converts lead to lead phosphate at the moment of combustion and then it's blown it out the exhaust instead of sticking to plugs, pistons, valve stems and exhaust pipes (where it actually builds up to the point of reducing the inside diameter of the exhaust system and contributes to corrosion of the exhaust system. I've saved my old 300-hour exhaust risers that I replaced due to lead buildup inside them. It's an amazing amount of reduction in size that occurs in only 300 hours. It's so hard, you can't remove it from the pipes.)
The exhaust residue does not stick so tenaciously to the cowling with TCP useage either, and that which does stick is similar to baby powder and more easily wipes away with a rag. It saves money and time in terms of maintenance.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
I am planning on making the 17th, so load me up with however much Bruce wants.gahorn wrote:Bruce, I've got a supply of it. Do you intend to be down this way anytime soon? (Like maybe the Jan. 17 fly in at Dry Creek? If not, maybe Joe will make it and it'll not evaporate before he can get it flown back to the Dallas area.)
The exhaust residue does not stick so tenaciously to the cowling with TCP useage either, and that which does stick is similar to baby powder and more easily wipes away with a rag. It saves money and time in terms of maintenance.
George, do you have stock in TCP. These last two of your many reasons to use TCP are astounding. Wipes off like baby powder and keeps the exhaust system from plugging up. WOW! Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
I don't have any interest in Alcor, and the white lead residue is not the problem when I use TCP. It's the other by-products of combustion that won't come off! 
Bring Megan to the fly-in.
Bring Megan to the fly-in.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Rudy! You're how old? Where you been all this time!!rudymantel wrote:George thanks for the explanation - I guess it begs the question, why not just use car gas ? Weren't our engines designed for 80 octane no lead fuel ?
Rudy
This subject has been cussed and dis-cussed so many times I'm just going to refer you to the search engine.
(And no, our engines were not designed for 80 octane no lead fuel. They were designed for 80/87 octane leaded avgas with approval for operation with the next higher grade avgas available.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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Mike Smith
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:53 pm
I've visited with Alcor by telephone, and I've arranged a personal visit in the near future to discuss availability and distribution. (I wish you could push a button at the local self-serve and have it dispensed at the hose-nozzle like some jet-fuelers do with Prist. I'll be talking to them about the idea soon.)
The plan at Alcor is to distribute it only in gallons for the future as soon as their current stock of quart containers are consumed. Quarts cost just as much to fill and ship as gallons and this should benefit customers by reducing their per-quart handling costs. (Alcor has had to charge $25 qt recently due to increased EPA/DOT costs. Gallons would spread the costs out more.)
They have now consumated an arrangement with a chemical company to mix up their TCP product and it should be ready before the end of this month (January, 2004).
I plan to be at our TX fly in on Jan 17 and will have several spare quarts available for those who are needful, but let me know via PM or email ASAP.
The plan at Alcor is to distribute it only in gallons for the future as soon as their current stock of quart containers are consumed. Quarts cost just as much to fill and ship as gallons and this should benefit customers by reducing their per-quart handling costs. (Alcor has had to charge $25 qt recently due to increased EPA/DOT costs. Gallons would spread the costs out more.)
They have now consumated an arrangement with a chemical company to mix up their TCP product and it should be ready before the end of this month (January, 2004).
I plan to be at our TX fly in on Jan 17 and will have several spare quarts available for those who are needful, but let me know via PM or email ASAP.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
I'm building a Glastar with an Eggenfellner Subaru engine. When using avgas he (Eggenfellner) reccomends TCP. Due to the scarcity of it, the folks with Subarus have been using AVP. A chemist in our group who is flying a Glastar with an Eggenfellner did an analysis on both products and the says AVP is as good as TCP for getting rid of lead and valve lubricant.
AVP is made in Canada and marketed by Niagra Air Parts in the US. You use 8 oz per 630 gal of fuel and the cost is $39 plus shipping.
The problem is TCP is an ORGANO-PHOSPATE like the insecticide PARATHION!!!!! I'm an ex crop-duster and the "greenies" have been trying to get rid of parathion for some time. It can be a lethal chemical but it breaks down readily in the enviornment. I bought some AVP and it has no hazard messages on it. Maybe because of where it originated. I'd guess that is why TCP is scarce. Because the EPA is balking or at least dragging their feet for re-certification.........as O'Rieley says........"I could be wrong"
Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT
AVP is made in Canada and marketed by Niagra Air Parts in the US. You use 8 oz per 630 gal of fuel and the cost is $39 plus shipping.
The problem is TCP is an ORGANO-PHOSPATE like the insecticide PARATHION!!!!! I'm an ex crop-duster and the "greenies" have been trying to get rid of parathion for some time. It can be a lethal chemical but it breaks down readily in the enviornment. I bought some AVP and it has no hazard messages on it. Maybe because of where it originated. I'd guess that is why TCP is scarce. Because the EPA is balking or at least dragging their feet for re-certification.........as O'Rieley says........"I could be wrong"
Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
buchanan wrote:I'm building a Glastar with an Eggenfellner Subaru engine. When using avgas he (Eggenfellner) reccomends TCP. Due to the scarcity of it, the folks with Subarus have been using AVP. A chemist in our group who is flying a Glastar with an Eggenfellner did an analysis on both products and the says AVP is as good as TCP for getting rid of lead and valve lubricant.
AVP is made in Canada and marketed by Niagra Air Parts in the US. You use 8 oz per 630 gal of fuel and the cost is $39 plus shipping.
The problem is TCP is an ORGANO-PHOSPATE like the insecticide PARATHION!!!!! I'm an ex crop-duster and the "greenies" have been trying to get rid of parathion for some time. It can be a lethal chemical but it breaks down readily in the enviornment. I bought some AVP and it has no hazard messages on it. Maybe because of where it originated. I'd guess that is why TCP is scarce. Because the EPA is balking or at least dragging their feet for re-certification.........as O'Rieley says........"I could be wrong"
Buck Buchanan, Valier, MT
Buck, I bought a bottle of this AVP stuff years ago from a dealer in Kenai when I was new to aircraft ownership and was running mostly mogas. As it was explained to me at the time it for adding to MOGAS not avgas. AVP stands for "Aviation Valve Protectant" or something like that and was designed to provide the valves with some sort of cushioning or lubrication in lieu of the lead in Avgas. (oh-boy here we go again)
The promulagation of the idea for the need for lead (or some other compound like this stuff) to provide cushioning/lubrication for the valves is very deep seated on many levels and I am about 2/3 of the way out of not believing it anymore thanks to Gahorn and his frequent posts on this topic. I used about half of the bottle of this $39 AVP stuff and stoppped using years ago figuring I got duped with another "snake oil" deal.Are you sure this stuff was meant for Avgas and will work the same as TCP on the lead in the avgas? Frankly, I have never seen this AVP stuff since I bought my bottle and figured they went out of business.
Bruce, N3243A
'53 170B
I'm not "sure" of too much other than I just had a tooth pulled.
It is my understanding from the chemist on the Glastarnet who is flying a Glastar with an Eggenfellner Subaru that the make-up of TCP and AVP were basicly the same. If the make-ups are the same; I reasoned AVP could be substitued for TCP especially if TCP were unavailable. The AVP costs $.06 per gal.
In the Subaru engine TCP or AVP is advised when using 100LL to scavenge the lead etc.
Buck Buchanan
It is my understanding from the chemist on the Glastarnet who is flying a Glastar with an Eggenfellner Subaru that the make-up of TCP and AVP were basicly the same. If the make-ups are the same; I reasoned AVP could be substitued for TCP especially if TCP were unavailable. The AVP costs $.06 per gal.
In the Subaru engine TCP or AVP is advised when using 100LL to scavenge the lead etc.
Buck Buchanan
The following is a quote taken from the Glastarnet written by the chemist I referred to in an earlier post pertaining to the similarities of TCP and AVP. Hopefully they will shed a little more light. Please note he is talking about AVP's use in a Subaru engine.
Buck Buchanan
Jerry,
If you can't get autogas, the current theory is that you use 100LL and then add AVP to "neutralize" the bad effect of the lead on your oxygen sensor. The Canadian vendor (Niagara Airparts is the US distributor) advertises this material as a valve protector, replacing some of the lead taken out of aviation fuel. For us it works as a lead scavenger, reacting with the lead to produce lead phosphate. Lead phosphate is reputed to be less sticky than lead oxide and thus does not stick to the oxygen sensor.
We are not using this material for this purpose, but they claim that this material works as a valve protectant by putting a layer of lead phosphate on the valve seats and preventing "micro welding" of small areas of the valve to the seat. It is micro welding which causes pitting of the valve seat.
I have only just begun to use this stuff in my airplane, so I can't give you practical feedback on it's effectiveness. However, I recently changed my oxygen sensor while tracking down rough running (I had an air leak at the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line connection) so I will be able to tell if it gets covered in a cream colored deposit of lead oxide like the old one did.
The reported chemical name of the key ingredient of AVP is isopropyl diphenyl orthophosphate. The previous material used was Alcor TCP, available from Aircraft Spruce. This was chemically very similar, being tricresyl orthophosphate. Both have an aromatic ring structures in radicals. Tricresyl orthophosphate has recently been identified as a neuro toxin, so it has suddenly become hard to find. It's not like we swig the stuff out of the bottle, but there's some weird people out there.
As a side issue, aviation fuel manufacturers already add a lead scavenger to 100LL, but the residue still sticks to the oxygen sensor.
I hope I have written this so that it is clear, if not let me know.
Regards,
Chris Lowery
Buck Buchanan
Jerry,
If you can't get autogas, the current theory is that you use 100LL and then add AVP to "neutralize" the bad effect of the lead on your oxygen sensor. The Canadian vendor (Niagara Airparts is the US distributor) advertises this material as a valve protector, replacing some of the lead taken out of aviation fuel. For us it works as a lead scavenger, reacting with the lead to produce lead phosphate. Lead phosphate is reputed to be less sticky than lead oxide and thus does not stick to the oxygen sensor.
We are not using this material for this purpose, but they claim that this material works as a valve protectant by putting a layer of lead phosphate on the valve seats and preventing "micro welding" of small areas of the valve to the seat. It is micro welding which causes pitting of the valve seat.
I have only just begun to use this stuff in my airplane, so I can't give you practical feedback on it's effectiveness. However, I recently changed my oxygen sensor while tracking down rough running (I had an air leak at the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line connection) so I will be able to tell if it gets covered in a cream colored deposit of lead oxide like the old one did.
The reported chemical name of the key ingredient of AVP is isopropyl diphenyl orthophosphate. The previous material used was Alcor TCP, available from Aircraft Spruce. This was chemically very similar, being tricresyl orthophosphate. Both have an aromatic ring structures in radicals. Tricresyl orthophosphate has recently been identified as a neuro toxin, so it has suddenly become hard to find. It's not like we swig the stuff out of the bottle, but there's some weird people out there.
As a side issue, aviation fuel manufacturers already add a lead scavenger to 100LL, but the residue still sticks to the oxygen sensor.
I hope I have written this so that it is clear, if not let me know.
Regards,
Chris Lowery
Buck, when you say it (AVP) costs $.06 per gallon, are you referring to the cost of AVP? or are you referring to the cost it adds to whatever fuel you're currently using? (TCP costs $44/gal and is mixed at the rate of 1 Fl. Oz per 10 gal of fuel which equates to increasing the price of fuel @ $.03+ per gallon.)
If it's basically the same as TCP, does it also have hazardous materials freight charges? (The reason TCP has hazardous materials charges is not the TriCresyl Phospahte.... it's the toluene that is the majority component of the mixture.)
And finally, does AVP enjoy the approval of the engine manufacturer's and FAA that TCP enjoys?
If it's basically the same as TCP, does it also have hazardous materials freight charges? (The reason TCP has hazardous materials charges is not the TriCresyl Phospahte.... it's the toluene that is the majority component of the mixture.)
And finally, does AVP enjoy the approval of the engine manufacturer's and FAA that TCP enjoys?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.