Loan approval complete - Now, which plane?

juredd1 · Post by **juredd1** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:55 am

Yes it’s me again……

Ok so I have approval for an airplane through Red River State Bank. I want to say thanks to LBPilot82 for his suggestion to try the Red River State Bank in the “Cessna 170 Loan Issues” thread. I also want to thank bigrenna for recommending Dorr Aviation as they too were open to lending but one of my plane options was going to be below their minimum loan amount after paying the required down payment and their rate was a 1/2 % higher. Thanks also go out to bagarre for the info on Bank of Glen Bernie as they were open to loaning on plane but as you stated they may not loan to out of staters and indeed they do not. If I missed anyone please accept my apology.

Now the process is not over as I still have to get the plane approved by their under writers.

Yes I am still in the search phase of this plane purchase roller coaster. I do appreciate the advice I have received through multiple threads.
I am not asking you to hold my hand here or make my decision for me (or I don't think I am) but advice is requested and will be appreciated.

Plane A

This first plane is an early model 170A that is a fur piece away but not out of the question at all.
The paint is more like a 3-4/10, it has many spots where the paint is missing, mainly in many of the seams on the fuselage aft of the wings. I know a paint job is in order sooner than later. It has a very appealing interior over all, everything in nice shape and has been updated. It has a KX125 Nav/Comm and a KT76A transponder. Looks like updated gauges and fuses, not sure about the wiring. Just an overall nice looking panel. Just over 3000 TTAF and under 400 SMOH, with good glass. It’s been a couple months but both my uncle and I agree this is the straightest of the ones we have seen, very little hanger rash if any. Once downside to mention is that it does not have toe brakes on the co-pilot side.

Plane B

I have found a 1955 170B a little closer to home than the other three trips which makes this plane look really good but I am trying to not let that part sway my decision to much. I would consider it good (7-8/10) paint with a very few small quarter size spots missing paint, mainly around the pilot side door hinge. I think I could live with them at the end of the day. I don’t know what a 170 looked like in 1955 but from looking and chatting with the owner it’s all original avionics equipment. Has a level wing autopilot or something like that. A KX170B Nav/Comm, Genave Alpha/200 (I don’t know what that is, another Nav/Comm?), KT76 Transponder, and an ADF but can’t read the model number from my pics. However the overall look of the panel is easy on the eyes. I think it is an average to nice looking panel as it does not look bad. Original interior side panels but updated headliner, seat upholstery, and carpet. Around 2200 TTAF, and around 450 SMOH. Needs a new windshield but could probably live with it for a bit as long as I don’t fly into the sun . The body of the plane is in good shape I think for a 58 year old plane, it has some hanger rash but nothing that is really damning. I know some of your view points on the logs but I have to mention this. They guy has owned this for 30+ years and claims that someone stole his log books back in the early 90’s. So he only has the logs since then. I am waiting on the paperwork from the FAA on this plane to review what they have. Not sure what to do on this log issue but I’m listening. It does have wheel pants but are not installed.

Just looking for pointers here as there is a $9000 dollar price difference in these two planes. I know some of you don’t like the missing logs issue and some of you wouldn’t think of buying the A model. I originally was set on a B until I seen this A and I am having a hard time passing on it. I have talked with two instructors that say they don’t have a real issue with the missing toe brakes which I was surprised by.

A concern I have is the heater in the A model. I flew for 3 hours in an Aeronca Champ the past weekend and although it was only in the high 30’s my feet became uncomfortably cold while riding in the back seat while the front seat guy was burning up. Is that how it will be in the A model when it comes to heating the back seat area? What percentage of my flying will be in the winter and what percentage of that percentage will my wife be in the plane is in question but it won’t take to many trips with her in cold weather to make me think about my decision if she is cold. My wife has had it ninety degrees in our upstairs office before and not be uncomfortable. Not normal….but I still have to live with it.

I am around 1200 msl working off of 2000ft and 1600ft strips. Hoping to take my wife and two kids (both under 4 years but expect them to grow up) out of these strips.

As has been mentioned many times before the big differences are the heater and the flaps. I read something about the dihedral which I don’t get or understand if it will improve squat when it comes to performance.

I understand there are many things to think about when it comes to things not seen from a quick look over. That will be dealt with in more detail when I pen this down to one plane.

When it comes to mods what can I not do to the A model that I can do to the B model? I was thinking when I contacted sportsman about their STOL kits they did not have an STC for the A model and I was thinking I read on this forum somewhere that installing harness was a bit more work than on a B model. If I am interested in a climb prop at some point do I need to verify any engine related info? Are VG’s available for the both models?

I know some of this on me. What in the heck do I want in a plane? I want the A model to be a B model, is what I want, but then it would probably be out of my price range.

I heard it said on it before a low time engine and a straight plane are most important. Both of these pretty much fit this bill as far as I can see thus far.
How much more is a B model worth to me? Good question.

Holy cow I typed a lot of info…..Hopefully you have read to this point to see me say a big Thank you!!

bigrenna · Post by **bigrenna** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:29 am

delete

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:44 am

I,personally, would be reluctant to buy an A model if I could find a B model that I could afford. There is, in my opinion, a world of difference.
The A model was a good airplane. The B model was a quantum improvement.

juredd1 · Post by **juredd1** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:59 am

bigrenna and blueldr thank you for your comments. I like straight to the point.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:04 pm

juredd1 wrote:bigrenna and blueldr thank you for your comments. I like straight to the point.

Hows this. Bigrenna and BL are all wet.

First neither the A or B model make lots of heat. Depending on the airframe the big difference is the distribution system and the volume. The 53 and later have 3" scat verses 2" at the head end of the system You didn't say what year A model. Early A models have or can have a heat distribution system that sends heat down the center tunnel to the back seat area. I've always found this better than later A models and 52 B models who's heater will cook the left foot of the pilot while all others in the aircraft are cold. As stated 53 and later B models make a bit more heat and it is distributed better in the cockpit. Not necessarily to the back.

Shoulder harness installation. Again this is subjective depending on your demand. Before the B model there is no factory shoulder harness attachment. So any shoulder harness system might** require an STC and some work just to install an attach point. I just did this to my A and for me it was not a big deal. The B model has an attach point which consist of a AN-3 nut plate in the rear spar carry through spar. If you want inertia reel system, and you want a "turn key" kit it does not matter whether what 170 you have because the available system uses it's own STCd attach point. If you will be satisfied with a fixed shoulder harness the B model with it's factory attach point only requires a slit cut in it's headliner and the harness attached via an AN-3 bolt. The hardest part being having the nerve to cut the headliner. ** Some mechanics might consider the installing the factory attachment a minor alteration not requiring further approval.

VGs are available for all models of 170.

Climb props equally available for any model and any engine.

The KX125 is a newer (mabe only 25 years old) fine radio but it is not anything special. The KX175 is an OK radio while it works but is pretty old. The Genave and probably the ADF are junk you should remove. If you only want a decent single radio the A model has a slight advantage over the B. You will likey spend $5k on the B avionics in the future.

If heat is a big factor the B has a bit of advantage. The B has more available parts than the A only because it is more compatible to the 172, slight advantage.

I personally don't want to pay for paint because my plane sits outside and paint doesn't make the plane fly. I'd use the condition of the A model paint to get a price reduction. I think advantage to the A model.

As for performance, if you will not be comfortable with an operation in the A model, having a B model is not enough of a difference if any at all, that it would make you comfortable with that operation.

While there are pro and con to each model 170 depending on personal preference. It really does come down to condition. This means the best aircraft is the one that is the closest to new condition as it left the factory with proper maintenance and repairs completed and documented correctly along the way.

If you judge each aircraft to be equal according to my last paragraph, only then would I favor the B model (and only if it was GREEN.

)

bigrenna · Post by **bigrenna** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:33 pm

delete

edbooth · Post by **edbooth** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:07 pm

Having owned a 53 B model for almost 43 years, If I did not have a choice, I would take either one...if I had a choice, I would take the B model and it would be at least a 53 to a 55 based on the the panel space and heater improvements. The 56's went to plastic panels inside and a fixed passenger window.... And remember this is only my opinion.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:07 pm

Bruce speaks as a true and ardent owner of an A model, but I'll bet that if he was given a choice, as a non owner, his choice would be a B model.

juredd1 · Post by **juredd1** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:34 pm

I enjoy the red/green debate very much, unfortunately neither of these are are red or green so I am out in the cold on that one.

I do like straight to the point but I was hoping for the detailed response I received from Bruce. Thank you very much kind sir and that A model is a 49 model. Thanks to edbooth for your reply as well.

The resale value has been on my mind as well but I truly hope that this will be a plane I own for the rest of my flying days. Unless unforeseen fortune comes my way or on the other end of the scale, unforeseen poverty.

I can't explain the tough mental struggle I have on a daily basis. One hour I have a decision and then there was something I didn't consider and then I flip flop back the other way. Before I sold my 152 I really never imagined the struggle inside myself would be this exhausting. Not sure why I thought that, when I bought my last new truck (last truck was several years used) I went for days battling between to brands. When I have a 50/50 change of getting it right I usually don't. That was the case in the truck purchase, not really knowing if the other truck would have made me happy I just know the one I chose did not.

My apologizes if I am sharing way to much here. To much info I am sure. Don't get me wrong here I'm not in tears yet but I'm sure concerned about making a good decision for my family more than myself.

I just gotta get this one right. Heck maybe both are right. Flip a coin and be happy.

bigrenna · Post by **bigrenna** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:41 pm

delete

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:11 pm

I'd take my time, I think your indecision will resolve itself once you have had a chance to evaluate and understand the various models and their condition. It's going to take time but you could compress the time interval by coming to the convention and walking the line. Only then will you have a true appreciation of what is a "must have".

juredd1 · Post by **juredd1** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:32 pm

I appreciate your advice bigrenna but I don't think I am being foolish I believe I am being realistic for my situation. I don't want to be naive in my thinking that I'll just buy something to get by and then be stuck with it for the next 20 years because the family comes before the flying. I got a late start so I have two kids under 4 so I need to make a semi-long term purchase. Just the $5k upgrade in avionics in the future that Bruce mentioned already has me trying to figure out how to make that happen. It's much easier to finance this stuff in up front than save it up. I can swing the B model it's less than $50 a month more than the 152 was it's just that I need to make sure it's worth the $9K difference above the A model. I also just have to come to grips that it cost more than my last used automobile that was bought specifically to safely transport my children. All personal issues that I have to figure out and over come. Not asking for a counselling here just trying to explain where I am coming from. Just not willing to give up flying at this point but have to find a happy medium.

Aryana, Good luck with the new plane search. I too would have liked to have keep two planes but the wife put the foot down and said sell the one before you get the second. I figured having one plane was better than having two without the wife and kids to go with it.

c170b53, I did come to the convention when you all had it in Branson, MO. I left about an hour south of there. I came up and looked at a bunch of planes but that was I think 4-5 years ago and I have slept many times since then. It took me a while to let go of the 152 that I learned to fly in.

bagarre · Post by **bagarre** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:53 pm

$5,000 for an avionics upgrade if you take it to an avionics shop for the work.

If you're not flying IFR, most any decent radio will do fine. The ICOM A210 is a $1500 radio that you and your A&P can install.
When I bought 81D, she had a KX-155 with a VOR head. I pulled it out and put a used Garmin 250 GPS/COM unit in that cost me $2,500.

I learned to fly with a Garmin 250 and thought I NEEDED that radio. If I was to do it again, I'd grab a good slim NAV and a decent hand held GPS.

Also, If you're flying daytime VFR to grass strips, you dont have to think about the radios for a while.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:42 pm

blueldr wrote:Bruce speaks as a true and ardent owner of an A model, but I'll bet that if he was given a choice, as a non owner, his choice would be a B model.

Well I've owned two 170s and was hours from making an offer on another if an untimely heart attack hadn't put my plans on hold. So I've made this choice twice more than many but of course not as many as a few. The first 170 I decided to buy was a '48. john Hess now owns it. The first one I actually bought was essentially a 52 B model. I know own an A model.

As I said, if I was considering two different models and they were equal in condition I'd buy the B model. But there is no model I wouldn't buy.

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:08 am

Well glad you made one and maybe you can make another in the future. I'm thinking if your not too far away, make the next one and make sure we all know you're there. Many of us will gladly demonstrate the difference between models, what to look for in each, what to avoid and I'm not talking the obvious. Many amongst us know at a glance what is likely trouble and who knows, you may even get a few more opinions. Having said all that, we have been stumped before as well.
I'm sure you appreciate that most of us have had to grapple with the decision you now have, at one time ourselves. If the advice seems scrambled, it's because everyone is unique in what they want and perceive to be important, obvious to themselves but sometimes obscure to others.....for some reason George and Gary Hanson come to mind.
Bruce I'm with you, just imagine if we had more hanger room

The International Cessna 170 Association