170B in Merced, CA Area

[Ryan Smith]

Hello all,

I was looking to see if there were some pictures anywhere that anyone had taken of my family's 170B that we sold several years ago, and found myself on airliners.net looking for pictures. While searching through there, I stumbled upon a picture of a derelict 170B sitting in the edge of a field that someone had taken. There was a pretty accurate location of the photo, so I plugged it into Google Maps to see if there was an airplane sitting around, and sure enough, a grainy 170 top view was visible just south of El Nido, a couple of miles north of the Highway 59/152 junction and about 100 feet off of the road.

I am absolutely crazy about 170s, and hate to see things rot away neglected, so my wheels started turning.

1. Has anybody in the San Joaquin Valley area seen this airplane before? Is there any history behind it? It appears to be a 53-54 model based on the rounded rear window and pressure cowl. I looked up aircraft registered in Merced County California and see that there is a 1953 registered there, N4680C.

2. The airplane appears to have lady legs installed. Supposing that the airplane is not riddled with corrosion and is available to be removed from its current resting place, how wide do those gear sit, from outside tire wall to outside tire wall? The most efficient way to bring this home, in my mind is to go rent a Penske Truck and disassemble it on the spot and make the trek home. The inside of the 26-foot truck is published as being 7' 8" wide. This seems like it would be a very tight squeeze, even without the lady legs. The other option would be to see if a friend's dad, who is a truck driver, has a remotely deadhead journey back east from California. I would hope that would fit in a tractor trailer.

3. If I have to trailer it back on a flatbed trailer (hopefully not needed), does anybody know if there are any permits required to do this?

I doubt I'd be able to do anything serious about acquiring this airplane for at least a year (unless things look up this year), but I would like to try and have a go at it, supposing its worth it. I do not have delusions of flying it any time soon after acquiring it, and I do not expect to be able to get a gem of an airplane for free when its all said and done (i.e: saving money by buying a project rather than an airworthy aircraft). The only way that this would really make sense is if I could get the airplane for next to nothing (which appears as though that's all it's worth in its current state), because it would take a lot of time, effort, and money to get it back into an airworthy state.

Any insight into this crazy inquiry would be appreciated. A quick forum search of the keywords "abandoned", "El Nido", and "Merced" did not yield any returns on the forums here. If it has been mentioned previously and I've been to myopic to notice, please forgive me.

Best regards,

Ryan Smith

[runerider]

Since your in the area, you might want to look at the one that has been tied down for years at the Lincoln Ca airport. Before you spend any money, look real close at how much it will cost you to restore the airplane. You could probably buy 2 or 3 real nice 170's. Enjoy your efforts

[hilltop170]

Ryan-
From my experience, there is no way you can restore one of these airplanes and come out money ahead if you pay someone else to do it, it just will not happen. Like the previous post mentioned, it will take 2,3,4 or 5 times what it will be worth to restore it depending on what level of restoration you choose to do.

However, assuming you get the plane for free or next to nothing, if you are able to do the work yourself and do the minimum required to make it airworthy, you might break even compared to an airworthy plane. My bet is you can always do better buying a good airworthy plane and enjoy flying it along the way.

The decision for you is whether you want an extended project or you want to try to find one already in flying condition ready to go or needing very minor restoration you can do along the way as you fly, like interior, paint, etc.

Some of the folks on this forum prefer what we call "rat planes" as opposed to fully detailed restorations. A rat plane can be every bit as airworthy and functional as the best restoration, but just looks like heck. And you don't have to worry about scratching it up with passenger's carelessness, luggage, or pucker brush when you land in places you wouldn't take a pristine plane. If you intend to keep it a long time, restore it along the way and keep good photo records and you could end up with an Oshkosh winner in a few years.

Just don't keep track of the money because it will depress you!

Good luck in your hunt.

[blueldr]

"runerider" above mentioned the derelict C-170 at Lincoln, CA. I looked at that airplane many years ago and the corrosion was at that time totally beyond any sort of restoration. In addition, the owner, at that time, would absolutely hang up the telephone the moment you mentioned airplane. Very strange guy.
The airplane down in the San Joaquin Valley near El Nido (The Nest in Spanish) probably belonged to a woman that used to come to the annual Merced Fly In each summer. I haven't been there for years but if she is still living she would probably be about my age and I'll be ninety in a few weeks.
I remember that she and her husband had a ranch or farm down near or at El Nido which used to be an auxillary field for the basic flying school at Merced Army Air Field in 1942 when I was a Cadet there.

[n2582d]

Here's the verse I never paid much attention to: "But don't begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a (C-170) without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? Luke 14:28

Let the little birdy on the top of the rudder give you a clue. When I looked at this plane last Sept. it was full of bird nests and bird droppings. The engine is an O-300B or C-145-2H. (The 170 Assoc. has an STC to make this engine legal). It was not preserved in any way that I could tell. Here's a picture of the firewall. (I was interested in how the heater air valve was mounted on the firewall. The picture is reversed--you're looking at the right side of the firewall)

California's central valley is blanketed in fog for much of the winter. High humidity + dust = corrosion. If you were to get one that has been outside look for one that has been in the desert if you want one with minimal corrosion. I'm guessing if the owner gave you the plane and $25,000 it would still be a losing proposition. On the plus side, I didn't notice any obvious damage. If you can't get your dad's friend to haul it, it's going to cost over $1000 just in gas to get the plane from CA to IL.

I'll bet for every one of these sitting out in the elements there are five in a hangar gathering dust, waiting to be restored. Before latching on to this one I would spend $100 and put a wanted ad in The FlyPaper, here in the "TradeMart", Trade-A-Plane, Barnstormers, Sport Aviation, or even Craigslist looking for a restorable C-170. If you have any sheet metal skills you might look at the various insurance company auctions. These would at least have all the parts there. Demographics are in your favor -- there are a lot of older guys losing their medicals. For every guy losing his license there is less than one new guy getting into aviation. It's a buyers market and you can afford to be picky.

Ryan, I hope I didn't burst your bubble. I'm speaking as the voice of experience; been there, done that. It's a lot cheaper to learn from others mistakes than your own. Besides, I may need some parts from that plane in El Nido!

[GAHorn]

Here's the verse I never paid much attention to: "But don't begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a (C-170) without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? Luke 14:28

... The engine is an O-300B or C-145-2H. (The 170 Assoc. has an STC to make this engine legal). ...

That engine is already "legal" as it's an approved engine per the TCDS.

I think the "moral of the story" is: A "restoration/project-plane" ...is perfect for someone who enjoys the work of restoring projects.
However, if you are looking for a cheap way to own a flying machine.... buy the most perfect version of the model you can possibly afford. You will be many thou$and$ ahead of the game while you enjoy flying it instead of looking at another irritating problem.

...
Some of the folks on this forum prefer what we call "rat planes" as opposed to fully detailed restorations. A rat plane can be every bit as airworthy and functional as the best restoration, but just looks like heck. ...Just don't keep track of the money because it will depress you!...

I think the term "rat plane" has not been suffieciently well-defined. I think some "rat planes" are airworthy...but a larger percentage are flying/capable with more serious issues. (Just as even the most-wonderful restorations sometimes have technically-unairworthy items..., but a true "rat plane" is like an old tractor that has been "farmerized". It flies with unapproved modifications/defects...and does it well...and proudly.)

[Ryan Smith]

I sincerely appreciate the replies, guys. I appreciate everyone's insight and honesty regarding my crazy request.

Again, I am NOT looking for a cheap way to own a 170. This is a project and I fully accept the fact that I will not come out ahead. I want to do something like this for the pure enjoyment of restoring something and at the end have (hopefully) a beautiful 170 to show for it. I am not interested in turning this over for a profit, or even selling it really. Eventually I will own an airworthy 170 and will more than likely get that long before this project would be complete (I hope to buy my family's airplane back); this would be for nothing else than to simply have a project to satisfy my OCD nature and desire to make something perfect. I am not expecting to throw $30,000.00 at this airplane and make it airworthy. If there is some work to get the airplane airworthy, such as some skin replacement, then I am fine with that. I consider that as an inherent risk, and a good reason to go through the airframe with a fine-toothed comb, which is my nature anyway. I expect the motor to be pretty much toast (hopefully by the time I start working on the firewall-forward stuff the XP Mods IO-360 conversion will be available again), instruments to be written off, no useable interior, etc. If it's a situation where all the skins need to be replaced, and 90% of the bulkheads and ribs as well because it's got holes in the metal because the corrosion is so bad, then I will likely pass. If it's something that will not need a replacement airframe, then I would like to pursue it. I can't stand to see things go to waste like that.

blueldr, I did do some searching on the registered owner, and it appears to be a woman in her late 80s, which sounds to be the same description of the owner of this airplane. Because the N-number is so faded on the side of the airplane, it's hard to tell what it is. I can barely make out the 'N'.

Thanks again, everyone.

[GAHorn]

...blueldr, I did do some searching on the registered owner, and it appears to be a woman in her late 80s, which sounds to be the same description of the owner of this airplane. Because the N-number is so faded on the side of the airplane, it's hard to tell what it is. I can barely make out the 'N'.

Thanks again, everyone.

Tell her you know how/where to find that cadet who took her out 60 years ago with all sorts of liquor and promises and then dumped her and maybe she'll GIVE you that plane!

[n2582d]

... The engine is an O-300B or C-145-2H. (The 170 Assoc. has an STC to make this engine legal). ...

That engine is already "legal" as it's an approved engine per the TCDS.

Good catch George. The C-145-2H is approved but the O-300B is not (although it is basically the same engine). I didn't bother looking at the dataplate so I don't know which engine this plane had but I saw that it did have the hydraulic valve on it so one could fly it with an Aeromatic prop that had the Hi-Cruise control cylinder. In any case the model engine is the least of one's concern with this aircraft.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Gary, you are right the -2H is approved the -B is not per the TCDS (though we all know it is the same engine) and you are also correct that the Associations STC SA01837SE makes a 0-300-B legal in all models of 170.

[lowNslow]

Let the little birdy on the top of the rudder give you a clue. When I looked at this plane last Sept. it was full of bird nests and bird droppings. The engine is an O-300B or C-145-2H. (The 170 Assoc. has an STC to make this engine legal). It was not preserved in any way that I could tell.

Gary, We have driven by that aircraft many times on our way up to Yosemite and I always felt sorry for the old bird and wondered what the story was behind it. Did you have a chance to talk to the owner when you looked at it?

[runerider]

Bluelder is right the guy is a wacko but it's fun to call him up just to make him mad.

[n2582d]

Gary, We have driven by that aircraft many times on our way up to Yosemite and I always felt sorry for the old bird and wondered what the story was behind it. Did you have a chance to talk to the owner when you looked at it?

Yeah, I've felt the same way. It's sickening to see the plane just rot away. I wanted to spray the whole plane down with Corrosion X. I only contacted the owner to get permission to take some pictures. Wish I would have had the time to ask a few more questions.

[GAHorn]

The differences between a C-145-2H engine (specifically mentioned in the TCDS) and the O-300-B engine (not mentioned)are addressed in the FAA Approved TCM ovhl manual and TCM IPC for the engines. TCM is specific about the differences and they state the engines are the same except as specifically mentioned elsewhere in those manuals...and in the comments which discuss those differences TCM states that they are the same differences as between the C-145-2 and O-300-A...which is crankcase stud/thru-bolt changes and materials changes in lifter bodies and cams. In other words, they are the same engines for all practical purposes....the problem is the TCDS has not been revised in that important detail (as it has been revised in details of lesser importance such as the 10-degree versus 20-degree flap changes in later versus earlier models. I personally contacted FAA/OKC about that issue 8 years ago and they took a year before issuing Rev. 54 which finally addressed that flap matter. Perhaps I should call that lady back again and point out the C-145-2H versus O-300-B engines as well, and bring out the point that substituting a -B for a -2H is just as appropriate as Cessna's current approval of installing later 10-degree flap sectors in earlier airplanes.)

[Kim Purcell]

Ryan,
I think your idea is great! Granted I am one of those "special "owners who likes to do things right and just figures out a way to do it. I have a 170A that I started stripping for a paint job, it's now completely apart because one thing leads to another and I am a bit of a perfectionist, my neighbors just think I'm nuts but have made it clear that they get first dibs if I ever sell it There is nothing more rewarding then knowing everything is done right and since you don't plan to sell it any time soon what it cost really isn't the issue.
I understand the family connection, I bought a Bonanza two years ago that belonged to my dads best friend when I was kid, both of whom are no longer with us. It had been sitting in a hangar for 7 years because the current owner refused to deal with the FAA and couldn't get anyone to annual it, plus his wife decided he was too old to fly. It was the most beautifull hangar queen with a new engine that was completely unairworthy due to the fact that firewall forward had no STC's for the airframe. Having friends at the local FSDO, a very good DER and a husband that is good at computer searches, research and familiar with Bonanzas we had a legal flying airplane 8 months later after lots of paperwork and a one time STC. My friends continued to think I was nuts, including my husband initailly, but we now have a wonderfull flying aircraft while I finish the 170 and, in the case of the Bonanza, it actually made sense financially. I figure maybe the positive from the Bonanza will help equal out the 170 but of course that means I have to sell one and I don't plan to do that anytime soon.
Good Luck!!
Kim