Endorsement

[GAHorn]

I want to commend Voorhees, who took the time to respond to this thread. It's got to be like trying to swim upstream, to post opinions based upon familiarity with official-dom... when the general audience is so quick to jump on anyone perceived to have authority with regulatory powers.

I'd like everyone to consider for a moment the fact that we have several Members and participants of our forums (including some of our present/former officers) who hold positions with a certain gov't agency. They wish to enjoy the comraderie and friendship of our association or they wouldn't be here...and they have special knowlege and skills which, if shared, ...can contribute so much to our conversations.
Yet, they live in a strange environment, juxtapositioned such that ...if they tell us the answer they know to our question...they can become targetted simply for trying to help out. (And even despite the fact that opinions expressed here are not official at all. ..itself an especially narrow walk to negotiate. Think about that... if, as our fellow-Member, they offer an off-the-cuff opinion they can be held by their employer to be cavalier or careless in their duty... even if they are "off the clock.") And they worry that their mere presence at our gatherings (both live and on-line) may unavoidably influence how we interact and enjoy our pastime with ourselves...and with them. They're damned if they don't...damned if they do.... when all they wanted was to be one of the group and enjoy the benefits of Membership and our friendship...without any imaginary imposing restrictions amongst those of us who want to complain about the "FUZZ".
It's been my experience that most of them are real people who love airplanes and airplane-folks.... people who have contributions they can make, and who can grasp the real-world life of aviation and aviators. Yes, there's a few over there who are anal... just like there's a few on this side just like those few. But... Most of them (and all the ones who are our fellow-Members) have been with us on the "dark side"... themselves often former freight-dogs, mechanics, instructors, charter-pilots, MMO users, etc., etc.. (I know one who, before joining the agency, even flew green helicopters, and yet he's actually a pretty good guy!)

Anyway... what I am saying is... There's no intent by anyone to inhibit our open conversations or take any official actions on anything said/done at our gatherings, including the ones on-line. Simply said...They are one of US... and when they're with us they're not wearing their gov't-issue hat... they're wearing their gimme-cap or Tilley-hat. I just was reminded in this thread how helpful and talented so many of them are, and wanted to encourage the conversational interaction, and their knowlegeable input.

[W.J.Langholz]

Harlow, I buy you a beer any time, thanks for the past, present and future participation.

[canav8]

Joe, I would also like to add the following. Vooreesh offers a good example but I would like to take this a step farther. It has not been said yet in this thread but it has been hinted. When a flight instructor makes endorsements he assumes all liability for his student with each endorsement. Joe, The FAA has burdened more responsibility onto the flight instructor in the recent years more then ever before. If their was an accident in your aircraft, your insurance would not cover this primary flight instruction scenario either. The flight schools insurance would not cover any scenario where primary flight instruction is conducted in anything other then flight school aircraft either.

I am an active flight instructor with a flight school. The responses you are getting are very common. It is unfortunate that Tailwheel instructors are a dying breed. In my opinion anyone bouncing around from airplane to airplane during primary instruction is foolish. That includes two of the same make and model. The student has to rely on what he knows. Familiar surroundings offers the greatest learning foundation on which to build on in the shortest amount of time. It will cost you more in the long run to train in both aircraft. You should have seeked training in your 172TW long before you introduced him to a flight school. My advice to you going forward is to finish the flight training in the flight school aircraft. He is almost done. After he is rated then go and let him fly your beautiful 172TW. Sorry your old school but there is no longer anyone around to train you guys. Regards, Doug

[15A]

Canav8,
I couldn't agree with you more!
I agree with all that's been said and suggested. It sure seems to be one of those unusual circumstances!
Same make and model... it is, but it isn't...
Just to back up this horse, my son's been flying with me for years. Even way back when I had my C120. He's been tutored by many qualified pilots, but never by a certified instructor. He's just recently decided to get his privates, and joined the flight school. He's doing the course step by step and all is going satisfactorily. He's not exactly the 16 year old kid he was. Mid 20's now and a little more focused! He tells me how easy the school 172 is to taxi and land!
If I had any doubts about him handling my 172TW, he simply wouldn't be flying it.
I've taken his instructor up in my plane left seat. He did very well for a first time tailwheel. His landing got a little 'squirrelly' , but I've done worst! So he does have some idea as to how it handles.
But as I've said before, he'll remain with his current flight school and continue the coarse. I'm just trying to save him a few bucks.
He does state that flying the two planes is a little different due to the arrangement of the gauges, but he likes the 'older' one better for the forward visibility and slipping purposes.

Again, thanks to all that commented. It's all very useful info.
I'll keep you posted!

[voorheesh]

[canav8]

Voorheesh is that a smirk of approval? Who is that masked man...LOL

[voorheesh]

I think it means very happy As in: glad we are all getting along!

[15A]

Well, it's been almost 2 months since the last post, so I'll throw in an up-date
My son has been flying the school C172 for his x-countries and night flying.
Doing single PIC in my C172TW. I had a 4th of July party at my place, and sure enough I could hear that old continental approaching. Quite a site to see my plane flying over with only my son in it .Again at work as I was inside I could hear it circling the shop. He's really enjoying that plane!

BUT (and hold onto your teeth)

The school owner WILL NOT recognize the flight time he has logged with my C172TW in his log book because she can't verify it.
That to me, is calling him a liar straight to his face. Like he has to CHEAT in his log to build time. I have never heard of such a statement.
He's very close to getting his privates, so I'm not rocking the boat. But you can bet your bottom dollar that statement will cost (and all ready has) more money than she has any idea of.
Needless to say, I'm fit to be tied

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Joe, I might ask her what Safety inspector oversees her operation so that you can have a conversation with then about what she needs to verify. Is she questioning the time he logs solo or time endorsed by another instructor?

While you can't make anyone do anything they don't want to, you are right, sounds like she is calling him a liar and I wouldn't care how close he was to taking the test it would be the last time any of my money was spent with her. And I'd still have a conversation with the FAA about it.

[JHKeeton171]

Is the school owner also his flight instructor? I can't find anywhere in the FAR's or Advisory Circulars where the "flight school owner" has any say so about much of anything. If it is a FAR 141 school, the requirements of their curriculum dictate what how it has to be done and there are procedures for previous experience and flight time. I am presuming he is just training and getting his ticket under FAR 61; so if your son has the proper tail wheel sign-off endorsement from a CFI there shouldn't be any problem. The logged time is only a concern to the CFI signing him off for the check ride that he meets all the requirements and the examiner giving him the check. Sounds like she has some heart burn over the fact that he is not renting from her to do all his flying. Situation might benefit from a polite sit down with all parties involved for a friendly discussion of the facts.

[15A]

You make a lot of sence, Bruce. It's his solo time recorded in doubt.
I should have said that he had gotten a few hours training in the tailwheel 172 by a vetran instructor. Short field, cross-wind, 2 different grass fields.
Slo-flite control and check-outs at other airports. His young instructor has taken a commercial job (congrats to him )and has been handed over to yet another school instructor. I'm not telling him what to do. He's old enough to make his own decisions. But a lot of our flying friends are telling him to walk.
As far as getting the FAA involved, that's something I just won't do. GA has enough issues! Bad word travels fast.
I'll let you know which way he goes.
Kind of odd, he went into this with the full understanding on both parties that he would be flying the 172TW as soon as he could. After all, that is the plane that's available to him when ever he should choose.
Like I said, he's down to the wire and it's nothing but foolishness now.

When I was taught in 1971, I had a used car salesman train me. I was his first. It didn't last long. I walked on the first sniff of bad air.

[GAHorn]

The recommending-instructor has to be comfortable with the student in order to make the recommendation. The instructor may or may NOT recognize any flight time logged by the applicant/student... but the instructor is also NOT REQUIRED to accept flight-time logged "off" the flight-training regimen as part of the courseline.
In other words.... he can log whatever time he wishes...but the instructor-of-record is not required to accept it towards the training required to complete the course for recommendation. (If you were teaching in a chef's kitchen...do you think you'd accept any cooking done at the student's home-kitchen towards course completion?
If you were the flight instructor, would you credit "flying around in Daddy's airplane" as worthwhile flight instruction...or solo-time? Probably not, unless that was time spent practicing prescribed manuevers which YOU had pre-approved. In this case...the flight school/instructor does not appear to have "pre-approved" anything in your personal airplane.)

Don't rock the boat...unless you are prepared to abandon the flight school....and spend more dollars at another ...while the new school/instructor becomes familiar and confident in the students capabilities... ... which could prove could be expensive.

[15A]

Sorry George. I don't buy it.
It's his solo x-country time and training time in "DADDY"S AIRPLANE" that isn't being considered. And if it's just because she has a problem with it I say she's not the only one out there.
The instructor who has flown and taught him in "DADDY"S AIRPLANE" is more than willing to finish him off and set him up for his privates at a fraction of the cost.

And before I condone any man for letting his son fly "DADDY"S AIRPLANE", I'd make dam sure there wasn't an underlying issue that just may have created the scenerio.

We'll just let this drop right here. I've gotten the opinions I asked for, unfortunately my fingers are in both ears.

[W.J.Langholz]

Joe

Your son is still flying, and enjoying it and that's something no one can take away from him. He will be a good pilot and that's what it's all about anyway....time in the air is the best teacher of all. Give him lots of encouragement. My son is 21 now and has his first flight review coming up .....boy time goes by fast


W.

[GAHorn]

Sorry George. I don't buy it.
It's his solo x-country time and training time in "DADDY"S AIRPLANE" that isn't being considered. And if it's just because she has a problem with it I say she's not the only one out there.
The instructor who has flown and taught him in "DADDY"S AIRPLANE" is more than willing to finish him off and set him up for his privates at a fraction of the cost.

And before I condone any man for letting his son fly "DADDY"S AIRPLANE", I'd make dam sure there wasn't an underlying issue that just may have created the scenerio.

We'll just let this drop right here. I've gotten the opinions I asked for, unfortunately my fingers are in both ears.

I'm not sure I know what all that even means....

But it sounds as if you're pzzed off because I used a vernacular-term in an effort to describe the perspective of the instructor. If so..I apologize if it irritated...that's not what I intended.

The perspective of the instructor is the limiting factor in this matter. Unless the instructor has a similar perspective as you and your son/daughter have... then you guys are not on the same page. And changing horses in the middle of the stream has already occured in several different levels (in this scenario.)

I advise not to let differences of opinions penalize anyone more than they already have. It's easy for me,..or for " a lot of our flying friends ...telling him to walk" ... to give our opinions on this, as it doesn't cost US a dime.