ab-initio tail wheel training

[jatkins]

My Son is doing his private licence on our C-170B, we were chatting about some of the differences, between
learning to fly on a nose wheel vs a tail wheel aircraft. The question which came up, was what sort of percentages,
or numbers of pilots earn there licences on a tail wheel aircraft these days ??? Anyone know the approx numbers ??
( yes he has to do spins in a C 172 )

Thanks John

[GAHorn]

I'm not certain of the "spins" comment... if whether that's a personal choice you've made, John... or if that's a MOT requirement... but I'm not a fan of spinning old 170's...not even those carefully restored. It's hard on 'em. (Try finding parts for cracked elevator brackets and vertical stab brackets, and you might reconsider if you still think it's OK to spin your 170.)

Spinning a more recently mfr'd airplane, such as a fairly-new 172/etc. is a better idea, as you've indicated... if it's a certification requirement. I personally don't think teaching spins to private pilots is paramount.
Teaching stall avoidance/recovery is, however. All CFI applicants should be required to take/pass a basic aerobatics course, IMO... the hazard being that some enthusiastic, undisciplined youth might try to show-off his "skills" to a student. Fierce penalties should follow that kind of behavior.

You're a brave-hearted man, John, to have him taught in a conventional gear airplane. Good for you!

[jatkins]

Hi George,
I really do not want my 170 exposed to spins.Transport Canada, Private Licence requires spin training.
That was why I made the comment, about him doing the spin training on a C 172.
I really think Ryan ( My son ) will be a bit better pilot learning on the 170. The instructor has just over 100 hrs on my 170.
He has 6 hrs and they have just started in the circuit.

I was trying to get a feel, on how many or what sort or percentage students get taught on tail wheels these days ?????

Are you still at CAE ? I am coming down July 12th,


Cheers John

[GAHorn]

...
Are you still at CAE ? I am coming down July 12th,


Cheers John

Yes, I'm at CAE-SimuFlite. I'm transitioning from the Hawker program to the Citation-X in preparation to teaching that airplane. (Cessna sure abandoned their base when they created the X. It's an automation-dependant airplane with hydraulic/electric flight controls and hasn't the sweet control-feedback of the 170 "fly by wire" system.)

Let's have a meal and a beer when you get down here!

[jatkins]

I am doing a Falcon 10 initial , so good flight control feed back, but no fy by wire on the Falcon 10 ?
Yes lets have a (few) beers !

John

[rhymes]

I too received all my S.E.L. training in tailwheel airplanes; first 30 hrs. or so in a Citabria 7GCAA, then up to my check ride in our 170B.
I'm not a suitable judge of whether or not it makes me a superior pilot... but I do find my friend's tricycle gear airplanes ridiculously easy to land, especially in x-winds!
I've only got a bit over 300 hours in powered aircraft, (I also fly gliders and hang gliders) but couldn't imagine giving up the continuing challenge of becoming a better taildragger pilot. "Every taildragger landing is Unique, and Special!"

[mrpibb]

At my friends flight school at andover nj everone starts in the J-3 for primary training, unless they request otherwise or dont fit. Then after their first solo they transition to the C172 for the rest of their training such as x-countrys, tower work ect.

[Flyfshr]

I'm a big t-dragger fan but I honestly think a conscientious flight instructor turns students into good pilots, not the equipment.

I was fortunate and had both a great instructor in a citabria... which means I should be awesome...

Come to think of it, I guess it's no guarantee...

[flyguy]

Real aviators fly tail draggers. Period!

I would venture to say there are "MANY" real aviators who fly many different styles of aircraft. We who "fly" for the rare enjoyment will fly almost anything we can wrangle a ride in. Deana, my love of almost 50 years, owns her own C150 and I consider her a REAL aviator along with her many other great talents. She has traveled solo on several long trips and has little interest in holding any records in the number of planes she has soloed. She just loves to be up there with the clouds and birds.

Summer of 1954 I started putting around airports in a 1938 Taylor Craft ( made in the same year as me ) The first OTHER kind of airplane I got to fly was a Piper PA11, then a Cub then etc etc etc. Needless to say all those old tail draggers had slow touch down speeds but even then steering was not really easy if you had crosswinds. First time I got in an Ercoupe with positive nose wheel steering I almost went nuts. No rudder pedals! What the heck do I do with my feet? One little brake pedal and a goofy crosswind gear that tightened the pucker string into a high E when you were looking down the runway out the left window on final approach with a 20 knot gale right across the runway ! When those little knuckles boinked around and the nose wheel steering took me right down the centerline I began a real understanding of why nose wheel planes were well on the way to becoming the norm. I didn't shed too many tears either. So don't be too handy with the "PERIOD" for you will jump with joy if someone ever offers you a chance to fly the Brokaw Bullet or a Mooney Mustang and find out the thrill of having your body press back into the seat with 400hp dragging you at 4000' per minute toward the edge of the atmosphere . Of course there are some tailweel airplanes that will give you close to that thrill but they cost mucho dinero.

[n3437d]

Two awesome aircraft - thanks for sharing.


Joel
N3437D

[flyguy]

Can you imagine either of these with a nosewheel?

Or this one with a tailwheel?

[GAHorn]

You got me on this one! Hard to argue that Bob Hoover wasn't a "real aviator" in his P-38. Also, after really thinking about it, I'm not ready to face any pilots of the following and tell them they aren't real aviators:

B-24, B-25, B-29, B-36, etc...

So, you have me convinced...real aviators fly taildraggers/nosedraggers...as long as it flies right??

I guess nose gear aircraft are ok...as long as you land them backwards

Bob Hoover didn't fly P-38's as far as I know. He flew P-51s. And tri-cycle gear Aero Commanders and Sabrejets (when he wasn't grounded for anger-management issues.)

[.... It's just my opinion, and a biased one at that. My dad was an instructor at Amelia Reid's flight school in San Jose, and the "Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers" was the slogan of the school. Amelia was certainly a real aviator and aruguably the best Cessna 150 pilot to have ever performed at airshows. Her low level "butterfly" routine in a 150 Aerobat was amazing, ....]

Last time I looked....unless modified.... C-150s and Aerobats were tricycle gear.

It's my belief that REAL AVIATORS can fly any type of landing-gear. [/quote]

[flyguy]

GORGY U MEENNYTYME MODRATER WHY JU POST URE LONGY WINDER ARCIKLE TREE TIME? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? U BETR GITS TOO UVEM GONE FORE BRUCH FINE OUT AN FINE U A HUNNERT BUKS EACH OFERKILL POSTIN

[cessna170bdriver]

GORGY U MEENNYTYME MODRATER WHY JU POST URE LONGY WINDER ARCIKLE TREE TIME? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? U BETR GITS TOO UVEM GONE FORE BRUCH FINE OUT AN FINE U A HUNNERT BUKS EACH OFERKILL POSTIN

HOW ELZ CUD 'E GIT MOR'N TWELF TOWSUN POSTS? 'E MEBBE LONGY WINDY, BUT 'E AIN GOT DAT MUCH TA SAY!

[GAHorn]

The first "Type A" personality around here don't stand a chance!

(I think it's one of those cases where the <Enter> key didn't appear to take effect so it was <Entered> again...and again....(something I've been known to do ever since puberty hit me.....)