New Member - New Plane?

A place to relax and discuss flying topics.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

Post Reply
mfanoni
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 8:16 pm

New Member - New Plane?

Post by mfanoni »

Hello all, I've been browsing these forums for a bit as I am working through my first aircraft purchase - a 170B. I am still a student pilot, but took it up today with an experienced tailwheel guy and it is a beautiful aircraft and I would like to make an offer. My problem, I don't have anyone to help me figure out what a good price is. I think I got a ballpark, but I'd like to get some other viewpoints.

How are these things usually priced and what are the game changers? What specific questions should I be asking (besides the obvious) that I can use to determine a good price? Are there certain models, years, or features that I should avoid? Or pounce on?

I'd like to hear your guys feedback and any advice you might have for a first time buyer.

Thank you,
Michael
User avatar
IA DPE
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:46 am

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by IA DPE »

Michael there are so many variables that enter into the price of a 170. Somewhat in order are if it's got a 180hp engine, aircraft total time, engine condition and hours since overhaul, condition of airframe (corrosion), modifications, avionics installed, damage history (and quality of repair), paint and interior condition.

There's no magic recipe, and only you can decide what it's worth to you.

PLEASE have a neutral A&P look at it and review the logbooks as part of at least a prebuy inspection. Preferably a mechanic who knows something about Cessna 170s. George advocates this should be done as part of an Annual Inspection, and there is merit in that point. You pay for the inspection, seller pays for discrepancies.
1955 C170B N2993D s/n 26936
1986 DG-400 N9966C
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by GAHorn »

MIchael, similar to automobiles, there are price-guides, both published and on-line which you can use as a starting point in valuation. In addition to that, your post seems to imply you intend to find a 170 and go up to the owner and make an offer. While virtually everything in the material world probably has a price-point at which it will trade owners... that’s not how to approach this matter...almost assuredly you will pay too much for it.

Like other items, if it’s for sale the seller likely already has an asking price. Airplanes are valued based upon the price similar aircraft have recently traded hands and considering condition, and the operating times (hours) remaining on the engine and accessories. Any modifications of the airplane either will add or detract from that value and should be confirmed to be modified in accordance with approved methods. A buyer’s task is to determine the relative value to other/similar aircraft in the marketplace, discuss with the seller a mutually agreeable price, and THEN buyer should have an inspection made of the aircraft to confirm (or deny) it’s claimed condition. Usually that means the buyer is planning to actually FLY the airplane, so the best recommendation I can make is to obtain the services of an A&P/IA who is familiar with the type airplane (Cessna 170s) and have an annual inspection performed to determine if the airplane is actually in airworthy condition.

A free, online aircraft valuation service is available for Members at AOPA. There is also a company that publishes “Aircraft Bluebook” : https://aircraftbluebook.com/. Be aware that the “bluebook” has it’s critics especially as it is supposedly based upon recent reported sales. I don’t know of anyone who has bought or sold a plane that has ever made any such report to the bluebook company.

Meanwhile, get online and look at Trade A Plane for the model aircraft in which you are interested and you’ll have a good idea of what the current asking prices are. Tradeaplane.com.
Trade A Plane used to offer a free “evaluator” service online but I no longer see it at their website. Beware of so-called “aircraft appraisers”. There are many such offers made that claim to be “professional appraisal” services taht are no better than what you can determine on your own and with the help of Type Clubs such as THIS one where it’s Members can knowledgeably help you. Of course, here you are at THE Int’l Cessna 170 Assoc’n and WE ARE the Type Club for C-170s. If you have an airplane of interest, you can always ask fellow Members here, and I recommend you JOIN at our HOME PAGE. http://cessna170.org/MemberForm.html

Meanwhile, tell us about the one you’re considering: Year, Engine, Total Time and Time Since Major Overhaul (SMOH) of the engine, and what equipment is installed (radios) and condition of paint and interior, DATE of last Annual Inspection, and within a few days you’ll have a “ball park” idea of what it’s likely worth.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
mfanoni
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 8:16 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by mfanoni »

Thanks all for the replies

A bit more about the plane:

Year - 1953
485SMOH
TT- I'll have to double check, cant remember off top of head
Paint is nearly perfect, spent most of its life in a hanger
Interior is 100% original, nearly perfect
Annual done a month ago, no major issues. Little weak on cyl #5, so they replaced it.
It has float attachments and PPONK gear from a rough landing maybe 10 years ago. Took a couple ground loops in it's life, but I spoke with some old timers who were around and they vouch that everything was repaired properly.
I'm no expert, so I couldn't tell you the model of radio. I'll drive out there today and check again.

It has sat for a few years with no flight time, but it passed annual with minimal work. I have been talking with the owner who wants to sell, He seems to want between 45 and 50k, but he's waiting on an offer. Neither of is in a huge hurry and he doesn't have the plane advertised. I get first crack at the purchase and he is a very reasonable person.

I feel like offering between $42 and $45 is a good starting point. I'll get some more info today....thanks everyone for the quick responses.
FredL
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 3:29 am

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by FredL »

Welcome to the association. You will find a wealth of knowledge here. It sounds like a nice plane but that sounds like a high price considering the state of the economy. I would have it inspected and make a lower offer, when he doesn't get any other offers he may come down on the price. Not many people buying planes in this economy.
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by GAHorn »

An owner will quite naturally have a high opinion of his airplane’s value while a buyer will have a very critical eye on that matter. They will virtually ALWAYS disagree and commentary on valuation from those of us not directly involved in the inspection/transaction are probably not fully availed of its condition. Keeping in mind that the present owner may also be a participant in these Forums.... I’d not want the Forums to become an arena of injured feelings over opinions of value. The PM feature of these Forums might be a better avenue of communication on that matter. :wink:

The most recent Bluebook of values I have indicate the typical 170 with a TCM 145 hp engine is worth between $22K and $45K. (IMO, the $22K borders on un-airworthy/out-of-license and $45K is a solid airworthy and pretty airplane.) The value of engine hours is $12/hr. The evaluation ASSUMES a mid-life engine of 900 hours. This means that if the engine has something OTHER THAN 900 hours.... $12 should be added or detracted from the value for each hour.

<Edit>: Some of these airplanes are highly-modified with increased H.P. Engines such as Lyc 180 and TCM IO-360 (195-210 hp) and some even have constant speed props. These conversions can add $25K-$50K to the value of the airplane. Just as easily, the AD notes and inspection requirements on some of those conversions can add considerably to the cost of on-going maintenance. These conversions do not usually increase the gross weight and therefore reduce the legal useful load. STOL kits and some other “performance” mods add/detract value in the eyes of the beholder. They add very little to increased speed but are remarkable as for T.O./Climb and field-length performance. Just FYI.

The evaluation also assumes 6-months/mid-cycle on annual inspections. This is worthless because the Bluebook ASSUMES the new owner will not perform a fresh annual upon purchase. MY ADVICE is ALWAYS perform a FULL ANNUAL INSPECTION as a “pre-buy inspection”. I’ve promoted that many times/many places here in the Forums. (If you only want to purchase an airplane that is airworthy, then the only valid inspection that seeks that assurance is the Annual Inspection. There is no standard or legality to a “pre-buy” inspection which has no legal definition. The difference in the cost of inspection-only... is small but the cost of missed airworthiness items can be huge.)
When the inspection is satisfactory and the purchase completed, the annual can be “signed off” for buyer and buyer can pay for repairs desired or needed, and if the inspection is unsatisfactory and the sale is not consummated, the airplane is returned UN-repaired to the owner with the logs recording the inspection and a list of discrepancies issued.
Either way, the buyer pays the inspector up-front for the inspection-only and the inspector is working for the buyer.

Installed equipment and condition makes up the rest of the consideration. Installed equipment may have cost the seller considerable money, but may have little value to the buyer. Avionics-age and intended useage of the airplane has great bearing. A Narco digital full panel installed 15 years ago may be worth $25K to the seller. It would likely carry little or no addt’l value to the buyer because Narco is out of business and cannot support the (now old) equipment. The buyer may only want basic VFR. C-170s were typically always basic VFR and Narco’s that work will meet that requirement...but add not addt’l value to the airplane. However, If the buyer wants advanced avionics ...Narco of ANY vintage would be candidates for complete removal. This means they detract....not add...value to the deal. But that is not the seller’s conviction or consideration as he will view the intended use of the buyer to be the buyer’s own decisons. (BTW, I’m not picking on Narco...there are lots of obsolete radios in these airplanes...many of them still perform good service. I have Narco in my own airplanes. But as a selling-point...they are a question-mark :?: as to value.
The main point about basic com/nav avionics is that if older than ten years they are of no addt’l value....and if they are new/advanced they may/may-not carry much value to a buyer as to a seller due to personal preferences and planned use. A seller is unwise to install avionics or overhaul engines thinking it adds recoverable-value to the sale.

ADS-B is a recent issue that Bluebook does not adequately address. If buyer intends to have an airplane that can operate into most controlled airports or wishes to have the advantages of simple flight following services of Air Traffic Control...he will need ADS-B. That can cost anywhere from $2500-$25K and the exact equipment installed can be a major part of a C-170 price-evaluation. IMO, it adds or subtracts $2K from Bluebook.

Physical Condition of everything else is the rest of the issue and can be very subjective in the minds of sellers and buyers. These airplanes are 60-70 years old and likely half of them have spent long periods in outside storage. Poor paint and interior and light corrosion are common. New paint and interior can cost $15K and up, but may raise unique questions. Why was it recently painted? (To hide Hail damage or corrosion?). Few owners put new paint/interior on airplanes they intend to immediately sell. This is usually a broker’s action to boost selling price. A recent paint/interior may have COST $15K but that does NOT add $15K to the value, IMO. I’d rather have an older paint/interior that has been well cared-for than new paint/interior I did not personally design or complete.

Corrosion is like Cancer. It never gets better without cutting it out and replacing it. And that can get expensive.

Damage History: Most of these airplanes have it. Not all of them have it recorded.
If it’s recorded, it’s more likely properly repaired and, if properly repaired, has no effect on value, IMO.

An airplane should have ALL it’s logs from Day ONE. It is a serious matter if any logs are missing. The only instance in which I’d personally make exception would be if the airplane had been completely, professionally restored to the condition of virtually-zero-time. An example would be my own airplane, an exported airplane when new, returned to the U.S. without logs, and then a total wreck that was professionally restored and won the Restoration Award at Oshkosh. Any Oshkosh-judged airplane is likely a great airplane that needs only to be inspected/evaluated for purchase price.
(We subsequently hit the jackpot on the missing logs 15 years after I bought it. While teaching recurrent at SimuFlite I had a client who was the Presidential Pilot for the president of El Salvador. When I told him my personal airplane began life in El Salvador but lost its logs he informed me that the CAA down there retains microfiche copies of every exported airplane’s records, and when he returned he sent me copies. Reading technical Spanish from microfiche is a challenge but, who says political connections can’t be useful?) 8)

Otherwise, missing logs are a HUGE RED FLAG in my opinion, sufficiently serious to run, not walk, away. There’s only ONE reason logs are “missing”. Someone in the history of the airplane wanted something hidden. It may not be the current owner. The airplane may have subsequently been completely restored. But someone, somewhere, sometime was hiding something. That’s my personal conviction and experience in over 50 years of dealing in these matters. (I’m primarily thinking here of airframe logs. Engine logs are another matter. If an engine log is missing it could be sitting lost in an overhaul facility. As long as the existing logs are complete since the last overhaul or rebuild I am comfortable.)

On the other hand, unreported/unrecorded damage is a definite detraction, and is commensurate with the costs of discovery/repair. (IE, if I came to buy an airplane that claimed “no damage history” and I found hidden damage that was repaired but not recorded... in my opinion my earnest money deposit should be refunded if I don’t complete the purchase.) THIS STATEMENT SHOULD BE SPECIFICALLY INCLUDED IN THE PURCHASE AGREEMENT MADE PRIOR TO INSPECTION.

While on that subject, anyone contemplating buying or selling an airplane should, when verbal agreement to inspect-for-purchase is made, create and trade copies of a “Letter of Intent” which will help prevent controversy as the sale progresses. This letter should state WHO is selling and buying, at WHAT PRICE, and under what conditions...such as “upon inspection for airworthiness using FAA Annual Inspection guidelines” at such-and-such facility, the expense of which will be paid for by buyer and to be completed by such-and-such date. At the end of that inspection the buyer will pay seller the agreed price or, in the event of newly discovered airworthiness items and at buyer’s discretion, a newly renegotiated price. If any airworthiness issues are found in the inspection, the seller will correct the discrepancy within ten days or refund the earnest money deposit. The letter should include any other conditions to which the parties stipulate and should document an earnest money deposit. I recommend 10% non-refundable unless airworthiness issues arise which seller cannot/will not resolve to buyers satisfaction, in which case the earnest money is immediately refunded. If buyer changes his mind for anything other than airworthiness issues discovered during inspection, then seller has sole discretion regarding earnest money.

A final note: Buyers should obtain a TITLE SEARCH when the inspection is underway. A buyer should INSIST that the seller be EXACTLY the same individual as the TITLE search reveals. If the Title indicates the airplane is owned by Acme Company... then John Doe who claims to own Acme cannot sign a Bill of Sale unless he can provide PROOF he is one and the same. If Acme is a corporation he must be the CEO or provide proof of authorization to sell that airplane. If the Title says it’s John Doe and Mary Doe... they BOTH must sign. I recommend you do this in front of a notary such as down in the bank where the payment changes hands.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
MoonlightVFR
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:55 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by MoonlightVFR »

Welcome mfanani

We are happy that you are interested in a truly classic aircraft.

Just remember that an airplane is only as good as its paperwork. Jealously guard logbooks.

Price mentioned seems reasonable. I am impressed that they replaced cyl #5.

Treasure trove of legal advise without you hiring a lawyer. It is our moderators.

Bargain pricing. You can purchase a New C172 for $450,000 , stripped bare bones, wait 10-12 weeks for delivery.
or you can purchase a 1953 C170B that has all flight characteristics of a 2020 model. Ten cents on a dollar

A solid asset for .10 on a dollar really impresses.
gradyb, '54 B N2890C
User avatar
rnealon1
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:28 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by rnealon1 »

Hi Michael,

Much wiser folks have already given extremely valuable information. My experience purchasing a "new" '54 170B in 2018 with no prior ownership experience has taught me many things.

Even though my aircraft had all logs since new, copies of STCs and 337 forms, had many pre-buys including my own, and has had many, many annual inspections, I have learned that there is much missing documentation for installed STCs and equipment that I did not have the knowledge or experience to note, nor apparently did many IAs.

While this seems to be common for aircraft this age to at least some extent, and many owners of such aircraft are not that concerned about such fine details, I believe it is wise to find someone who can sort out all the installed equipment and whether it is properly documented. Even an annual inspection, as George strongly advocates above, is not foolproof in discovering everything. At least that way you are clear about the task you are taking on and what you are willing to live with.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you, these are really great airplanes.

Bob
Bob Nealon

Southbury, CT
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: New Member - New Plane?

Post by GAHorn »

rnealon1 wrote:... find someone who can sort out all the installed equipment and whether it is properly documented. Even an annual inspection, as George strongly advocates above, is not foolproof in discovering everything. ...
Good words!

Here’s a major part of the problem: The buyer already knows this can get expensive and hopes to keep the “buying experience” at as low-cost as possible. Being “in love” with the idea of soon owning one’s own airplane... can be mesmerizing. As buyer, YOU DON”T WANT anything to be wrong with your “new love”. (Think of that old girfriend/boyfriend you once had and how they first appeared compared to how they ended up being. There’s a reason airplanes are sometimes compared to women.)

Simultaneously, the buyer is likely doing business with an inspector previously unknown.... so finding the inspector often is by reference from the SELLER!

The seller on the other hand, is hoping nothing keeps this airplane from getting sold to the buyer. These two are in direct conflict despite the politeness being practiced by the parties involved.

Get a QUALIFIED inspector.

Get a QUALIFIED inspector and instruct that inspector to be “detail oriented” if you’re about to shelve-out thousands of dollars on an unknown airplane. Tell that inspector UP FRONT that if you buy this airplane you will expect the inspector to SIGN OFF on that Annual Inspection and APPROVE the airplane for return to service!

An “annual inspection” requires that the inspector delve into the details of records, “Instructions for Cont’d Airworthiness” (ICAs) of modifications MUST be available, such as Installation Instructions. Many inspectors, thinking this is a “one time pre-buy” for a customer they’ll never see again may take the attitude that this is going to be a “quick and simple look-see” and that will be the end of the transaction for himself. Don’t allow that. Ask questions as tthe inspection progresses. Stay involved, don’t just hire the guy and wait for his report...this is the time to LEARN about this airplane!

How can an inspector properly inspect a modification/STC he’s never seen before if the Installation Instructions are not available? Example: The airplane has “Cleveland Brakes” installed. Many inspectors will look and confirm, “Yep...those are Cleveland brakes!... they look good!” But did the inspector determine that proper paperwork such as an STC has been issued for THAT airframe? ..and do the records include the ICAs? Or did the wheel and brake assy’s come out of a salvage yard and get installed by John Doe, A&P 123456789 waay back in 1969 and no one question the basis of approval ever since?

Get a Qualified Inspector and tell him to be “Picky”. This is not the time to cut corners.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
Post Reply