Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

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Ryan Smith
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by Ryan Smith »

Watkinsnv wrote:Now on cross wind landings wing low opposite rudder up to 30 degrees of rudder. Technically a slip. How many people use this technique. On a calm day or light winds I always use 40 degrees of flaps. I never crab into the wind and try to kick it out like a tricycle gear aircraft. I think its normal to us flaps on landing. I haven't heard a response to cross winds and use of flaps. except some say they like to make wheel landings others full stall landings and get the tail wheel down. I think a crab approach leaves you to greater chance of large loads put on the main gear and ground looping. But the approach is what I'd like to hear more of please.
If it's windy enough that I need to wheel the airplane on, then it's windy enough that I don't need flaps. YMMV
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TFA170
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by TFA170 »

If folks wish to willfully and intentionally misconstrue my friendly and respectful post as insulting, I cannot do anything about that other than to state it is disingenuous at best.

I wish you all good luck and stabilized approaches.
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GAHorn
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by GAHorn »

TFA170 wrote:If folks wish to willfully and intentionally misconstrue my friendly and respectful post as insulting, I cannot do anything about that other than to state it is disingenuous at best.

I wish you all good luck and stabilized approaches.
"disingenuous".... a word that's gained great popularity of late.

You believe I've "willfully and intentionally misconstrued" your "friendly and respectful post".... and I"m "disingenuous"...Really?

Well, HERE is what you wrote:
TFA170 wrote:[..., "Slips with full flaps are to be avoided..." - that doesn't seem to be much of a warning. ..... I would actually recommend practicing slips with full flaps AT ALTITUDE to understand how your aircraft behaves. .... for those (hopefully) rare times that circumstances, environment, or self-induced buffoonery conspire against you and put you in a corner you'd rather hope not to be in otherwise...but have the ability to recognize and operate safely out of.

...I think it's far more important to know your aircraft under all operating circumstances to the maximum practical possible level. ... I'd never suggest flying an aircraft I was afraid of, or thought would be damaged (or worse) doing normal maneuvers...if you're that scared of the structural integrity of your 60-year old aircraft, perhaps it should be parked...

"The engineers design an aircraft that will be structurally guaranteed so long as it stays within a certain envelope." ... Know it before you find yourself there and plan to avoid that by all means, but be prepared for the unexpected.

For me, that means flying 3-5 good solid predictable patterns to landings with well-stabilized approaches. I then go out and do different things - ...:
As I explained previously, the FARs which existed at the time of this aircraft's production since changed because pilots did not take the caution seriously and either didn't take it seriously or foolishly disregarded it and killed themselves and their passengers. That "doesn't seem to be much of a warning" to you because was written by the MARKETING department whose goal was to SELL this airplane and didn't want the hazards to be emphasized.

You "actually recommend practicing slips with full flaps".... disregarding the mfr's explicit, printed warning NOT to do that. In any airplane produced under modern rules that could be construed as a criminal recommendation if it resulted in a fatality. What makes you think a visitor to this website who reads your "actual recommendation" will successfully exit a potential full-flap spin at altitude? What makes you think an insurance company would belly-up to pay a damage claim when a flap is ripped off the greater-than-negative-G-maneuver or resultant spin with flaps-deployed, which is warned about in mfr's publications? ...that "zero-G" with flaps deployed, is the stess-capability the "engineers design" you're so confident of... specifically prohibited ...which you are willing to advise OTHERS to risk/disregard?
What makes you think a 170 with a flap missing can be safely brought to a landing by a shaken owner-pilot performing a maneuver he's never previously done and having seen areas of his artificial horizon he's never viewed before?

You wrote " Know it before you find yourself there and plan to avoid that by all means, but be prepared for the unexpected."
The way to "avoid that" and "be prepared" is to never do it!



You say I'm disingenuous for being insulted when you posted your "respectful" statement: "if you're that scared of the structural integrity of your 60-year old aircraft, perhaps it should be parked." Really! I suggest that I'm not the one being disingenuous.

You recommend to "...flying 3-5 good solid predictable patterns to landings with well-stabilized approaches. I then go out and do different ..."

As a representative of this type club, ...and as a factory production test-pilot, and as a professional flight instructor and pilot examiner designee over 45 year career,... I will repeat what every professional instructor teaches: "Train as you Fly.... and Fly as you Train."

AVOID practicing good flight training ...and then going out and "doing something different". Especially when that thing "different" is opposite the mfr's cautionary warnings.

If you think I'm "disingenuous" or "afraid" ... then you don't know me.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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TFA170
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by TFA170 »

gahorn wrote:You believe I've "willfully and intentionally misconstrued" your "friendly and respectful post".... and I"m "disingenuous"...Really?
Yes. I do. And you did it again in this post. Worse, you put words in my mouth through the artful craft of selective quoting and applying your own interpretation to those words. That is disingenuous...at best.
gahorn wrote:As a representative of this type club, ...and as a factory production test-pilot, and as a professional flight instructor and pilot examiner designee over 45 year career,... I will repeat what every professional instructor teaches: "Train as you Fly.... and Fly as you Train."
And I'll repeat what I've always maintained: "Train like you fight or die like you train" - and while I coined that during my military career, it applies to all aspects of life...general aviation included.

You clearly have an awful lot of experience folks can learn from. It's too bad your professionalism is hidden behind arrogance and condescension.
gahorn wrote:If you think I'm "disingenuous" or "afraid" ... then you don't know me.
And you, sir, have no idea who I am or what I'm all about either. Just because you can find my name and address via your access to the online registry as a "...representative of this type club..." doesn't mean you know anything at all about me. I would ask you kindly to please quit assuming.

Once again, I wish you good luck and stabilized approaches.
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GAHorn
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by GAHorn »

TFA170 wrote:[...And you, sir, have no idea who I am or what I'm all about either. Just because you can find my name and address via your access to the online registry as a "...representative of this type club..." doesn't mean you know anything at all about me. I would ask you kindly to please quit assuming.

.
It was your words which I quoted. Anyone can interpret them as they see them.

I did not use any special access or privilege as a "representative of this type club" to see who you are. Anyone who clicks on your username can see your member no. and any member has a Directory.

If you feel you have special skills that will lend credence to your advice to others to go out and do in their airplanes what the mfr's recommends against...then please inform us. As for your motto re: training/fighting... Why don't you follow your own advice and go violate those recommendations in your own airplane and then tell us about your testing program. Good luck with that.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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c170b53
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by c170b53 »

Well just to recap ( as I see it), Justin asked a great question. Opinions flowed in (as you would expect for a great question in a somewhat grey area), not everyone was in agreement. Then with the thoughts of possible spinning, we spun into another realm where name calling ensued.
For me this part was almost as interesting as watching shopping carts crash at Walmart.
What's the best news here? What's positive?
Justin, .. Sounds like he's still probably looking to find himself a replacement 170B. Remember he lost his in a storm and last I knew, he was shopping for a replacement. I'm thinking about him when I read the last bit of negativity.
Thing here is, this process is nothing new in the forums. I know Justin because I've met him in person. Often, if I know a member, I can better (not always) sense what he is trying to convey in a post.
If you don't know a member and can figure out always, solely by a reply in a post what they are exactly trying to convey then your wasting your time here...Google and possibly Amazon really want to talk to you, BAD.
OK. can we move on ?
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
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canav8
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by canav8 »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:
Ryan Smith wrote:No, it's cool.

I love insurance hikes. Please, everyone go nuts.
Was that "No" a B model shouldn't be slipped at less than 40° flaps if It's cool someplace?

You like hikes with insurance?

Everyone should be a nut?

I'm not following you Ryan.
Ryans attempt at Sarcasm.
Basically flaps 40 and slips should not be mentioned in the same sentence. OP asked about slips with partial flaps. I have done experimenting and I can get the aircraft to depart with less then flaps 40 while holding the flap handle past 20. Everybody has an opinion but truth is it is known that you can successfully cause airflow separation over the tail with less then full flaps during a slip. I dont recommend anybody experimenting unless it is in a controlled environment. JMHO. Doug
52' C-170B N2713D Ser #25255
Doug
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GAHorn
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by GAHorn »

Later versions of Cessna's warning applied to the follow-on model aircraft (C-172/175 series) warned against slips with any degree of flaps deployed.
Ghostflyer related that he experienced it in his A-model. The aerodynamics are the same, the downwash is just more pronounced with a B.

It's difficult for some people to get the seriousness of this.
Some people are visual learners. Here's the result of what is believed to be a slip with flaps deployed on short final.

Notice the airplane is upside-down and a flap has departed the wing. (Click on image to enlarge.)
click on image to ENLARGE
click on image to ENLARGE
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by ghostflyer »

They wouldn't have stood a chance , I noticed that recent work was done on the leading edge of the wing [wing cuffs?] . It contacted the ground at high speed . Note the angle of contact also and direction to the tree line . Flying is safe IF you obey the laws of aerodynamics.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

canav8 wrote: it is known that you can successfully cause airflow separation over the tail with less then full flaps during a slip.
Really Doug? I don't think it is known. Exactly why we've been going on about it for 3 pages. If it was known, I'd probably know about it and this thread would have stopped about 3 or 4 posts down.I didn't and have never heard this which is exactly why about 2 pages ago I said the answer to the question is not a topic of discussion heard and one would be a test pilot perhaps to find out the answer. And the fact it was not a known issue may speak volumes about it not being an issue. I said I didn't slip my B with less than 40 because I didn't want to make the mistake in a pinch of thoughtlessness applying slip with full flaps. Plus if I had less than full flaps and felt the need to slip, I'd just apply more flaps.
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Ryan Smith
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by Ryan Smith »

ghostflyer wrote:They wouldn't have stood a chance , I noticed that recent work was done on the leading edge of the wing [wing cuffs?] . It contacted the ground at high speed . Note the angle of contact also and direction to the tree line . Flying is safe IF you obey the laws of aerodynamics.
I think you're noticing that the bottoms of the wings were painted and that the leading edges were polished. That airplane had a stock wing.
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c170b53
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by c170b53 »

I rarely use more than 20, am I a bad pilot? I'm of the mind that at that setting a go-around might be easier so I've become accustomed to using that.
I still see this couple in my mind as if they were still with us. and I find the picture of their crumpled plane disturbing.
Ghost flyer, the belief (I believe) is that the plane came straight down through the trees
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
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GAHorn
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by GAHorn »

c170b53 wrote:I rarely use more than 20, am I a bad pilot? I'm of the mind that at that setting a go-around might be easier so I've become accustomed to using that.
I still see this couple in my mind as if they were still with us. and I find the picture of their crumpled plane disturbing.
Ghost flyer, the belief (I believe) is that the plane came straight down through the trees
NO. You're NOT a "bad pilot" for choosing to use 20 degrees as your normal landing flaps. If that's your preference and if that's what works for you...then that's simply your choice.
However it's considered normal to land at the lowest possible speed in the interest of safety, and that means you are not taking advantage of the slowest speed configurations your airplane has within it's design. Generally speaking, you have not given-up your go-around options simply because you've selected full/40-degrees of flaps. Any go-around would still be possible with full flaps as long as you follow the proper procedure ... of applying full power, arresting descent with nose-up rotation, then stabilizing at climb speed (Vx) and retracting flaps to 20-degrees (take-off flaps). After obstacles are cleared, retract flaps and accelerate to Vy. Your technique simplifies the go-around procedure.... but it increases your approach\/landing speeds and therefore your landing distances. As long as you know the difference ...and can accept that then you are not a "bad" pilot.

In fact,... at very high density altitudes.... reduced flap landing may be a better choice under certain conditions. The use of flaps above 4K feet density altitudes... flaps will increase takeoff/go-around distances. Certain field length/density-altitude/obstacle conditions may make that flap selection a better choice than more flaps. In extreme conditions, Zero-flaps are appropriate. (Those conditions are rare, however.)
ghostflyer wrote:They wouldn't have stood a chance , I noticed that recent work was done on the leading edge of the wing [wing cuffs?] . It contacted the ground at high speed . Note the angle of contact also and direction to the tree line . Flying is safe IF you obey the laws of aerodynamics.
According to the accident report (which analyzed the GPS sim-card data onboard the airplane) the speed was normal, about 64 KNOTS (well above stall speed), with flaps extended, on about 1/4 mile final. Quote: "No evidence of any preexisting mechanical anomalies that would have prevented normal operation of the airframe and engine were found during examination of the engine and airframe." The toxicological study detected the only drug in the pilot's system was Tylenol.

The airplane was a beautifully restored-to-original, award-winning B-model. No wing mods.
The pilot was not inexperienced. He was a rated SEL airplane and certificated sailplane pilot. In fact, the fatal flight was a return-flight from a day of soaring. Sailplanes are often slipped on final approach to quickly lose altitude for landing. No one has any recollection of ever discussing the B-model restriction with him, and that's what makes this so disturbing to those of us who knew him and his wife. We often wonder "why.. WHY didn't we discuss this flight-characteristic with new Members so that everyone would KNOW?"

It weighs heavily upon us, as this discussion illustrates.
GPSreport.pdf
(681.97 KiB) Downloaded 865 times
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
hilltop170
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by hilltop170 »

Later Cessnas had the max flap position reduced to 30 degrees and there is no restriction to slipping with flaps in the POH. So it is probably safe to assume that "real test pilots" have made that determination.
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Re: Can a B Model be slipped at a less than 40 degree?

Post by ghostflyer »

I can't believe the damage done to the aircraft with a velocity of 65 kts. You learn some thing new every day. I have shown this to a couple of my colleagues [ aeronautical engineers] and it's made them rethink also. We have seen the results of aircraft crashing into trees due to fuel starvation, mechanical issues , or pilot mistakes etc but never seen the cabin of a aircraft totally flattened. Plus there wasn't any fire.
Maybe a half page article in our news letter warning people of the issues with slipping and flap deployment .Showing photo and report .
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