Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

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Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby 170C » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:35 pm

What's the correct nomenclature for the bolts, washers, nuts for:
Scott 3200 tail wheel (3 each)
Cleveland 6 inch main gear wheels

I think its time to replace all nine of mine. Best source?
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby gahorn » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:43 pm

You'd think this to be a simple question/answer but the possibilities are several.

Frank, YOU hava a Bolen conversion. Which wheel was used? Or did it re-use your original wheel?

What OEM wheel? McCauley? Goodyear? Cleveland? (Depends on which specific model 172 was used. 172? 172D? 172 Skyhawk? 172L?

OK...let's go with Cleveland wheel for your usual Lotto-Luck... Which Cleveland Wheel? 40-77? 40-77A? or 40-77 B thru F?

Or was it a conversion from a salvage yard? Again, which wheel?

The most common wheel for a 170/170A/170B conversion kit from CLEVELAND... was their kit 199-46 which used a 6:00-6 wheel, PN 40-97A.

THAT wheel used three bolts to assemble the wheel, Cleveland PN 103-20400, (which happens to correspond to an AN5-35A). It's (3) NUTS were Cleveland PN 094-10400 (which are MS21044-N5) and the Cleveland washers are PN 095-10500 (AN960-516). You'll need SIX of each for two main wheels. They should be torqued 150 IN-lbs DRY.

Now, to further add complication as an example, the possibilities of the various nuts..... is just NUTS!

The Cleveland NUTS, MS21044-N5 have a SPRUCE PN 05-13992 .... which sell for the wonderful price of .... $4.85 EACH. Times six. Equals $29.10 plus tax and shipping. Just for the nuts.

OR... you could use the AN365-524A which sell for about 16-cents each or the better all-metal AN363-524 which sell for about 69-cents each.

I hope that clarifies things for you. :twisted:

Then there's the Scott tailwheel.
170C wrote:What's the correct nomenclature for the bolts, washers, nuts for:
Scott 3200 tail wheel (3 each)
Cleveland 6 inch main gear wheels

I think its time to replace all nine of mine. Best source?


Frank, are you sure you don't have FOUR (4) bolts holding your tailwheel together?

It can use AN4-7A bolts, AN960-416 washers, and AN 365-428A nuts.

Note: One of the best resources for finding answers to these kinds of questions are things like Aviall catalogs. They are free if you'll drop by your Aviall dealer or visit their website aviall.com As you can see by this discussion ... our airplanes are so modified by so many different methods that standards are becoming difficult to establish unless YOU know YOUR airframe's history. Salvage yard raids for conversion-parts can add a lot of confusion unless you establish which standard you presently have and stay with it. One of the difficult situations to address is when a salvage yard is sourced for a wheel/brake conversion and the original airframe wheels are discarded without documentation as to what exactly replaced what. Making it a rule when removing parts is to LOG OFF the part numbers and LOG ON the replacement part nos. and sources will go a long way to preserving and promoting these airplanes.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby 170C » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:30 pm

Thanks for the info George. I don't have a clue to those part numbers. I don't have logbook data to provide this info. Last time I looked I couldn't find p#'S on the 600 X 6 mains. Probably Clevelands. Tailwheel probably has 4 bolts---will have to ck. Someone suggested it would be a good idea to replace old bolts. Mine are the ones that were on the wheels when I bought it in 1989 and likely are the ones that were original when mfg'd. Suspect most Cessna wheels have the original ones,'but thought it might be time to replace.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby gahorn » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:12 pm

Frank, whenever tires are changed is a great time to inspect wheels and bolts and bearings.
Look for CRACKS in wheels after they've been cleaned with a magnifying glass. Cracks are most likely in bearing-beds, wheel rims (outer edges where they've been stressed) and webs. They are particularly vulnerable in the through-bolt holes. Look very carefully for bolt-holes that are cracked or damaged from too much torque or too little (which allows the wheel halves to slip/slide/chatter and wear out the holes. This is especially common when pilots use a brake on one wheel to turn the airplane tightly into a parking spot or at the run-up/turnaround on the runways. Tight turns force the wheel halves to twist against each other if not properly torqued. This forces the wheels against the bolts and cracks wheels and damages bolts.)

Look for wheel CORROSION due to water/washing/rain/snow/etc. Use a 3M pad to remove any and if it is deep enough to catch a fingernail... replace it.

Look for fastener CORROSION also. Rust/corrosion or any scratching of base metal is always a reason to discard fasteners. Reusing washers is common, but use new locking nuts if they've been reinstalled more than a few times or anytime they can be turned by fingers.

Almost all Cleveland fasteners are torqued DRY but a couple require a product called "Lubtork" which is an antiseize. I don't know of any of our airplanes which use it, but if you do then beware of torque values which may be either reduced OR increased. Parker Aerospace publishes that data.

Be very careful when replacing bearing races/cones. These are usually aluminum wheels but some are also magnesium and they cannot take the pounding/pressing of bearing races/cups into the wheel beds. It's easy to crush/crack wheels using a socket and hammer like many do on the hangar floor. It's always best to use a hydraulic press to install races/cups but again... bottom-out the races/cups and STOP. Don't treat them like you might automotive bearings and hubs which are made of steel.

Also BEWARE of a slight change which occurs with these older/classic airplanes when it comes to bearings. THE ORIGINAL wheels were usually Goodyears. The IPC (Illustrated Parts Catalog) give part numbers of bearings installed in those GOODYEAR WHEELS.... while many of us have actually modified our airplanes with CLEVELAND WHEELS which use the same roller/cones ...but use DIFFERENT RACES/CUPS than the IPC suggest. There is a slight difference in the outer diameter of the races/cups used in Cleveland wheels and use of the wrong race/cup can add stresses and cracks to wheels.

The Cleveland Kit mentioned above has a listing of the correct bearing part numbers. Folks who make up their own mod-kits may not notice the difference, and the IPC applies only to the original Goodyear wheels.

The original Goodyear wheels used Timken bearing/Cone PN13899. The Cleveland uses the same PN.

BUT... the CUP CHANGED from the Goodyear Timken PN 13830... to the CLEVELAND Timken PN 13836. While forcing the incorrect PN into the wheel may work.... it will also either stress/crack the wheel .... or the cup will be loose in it's bed adding to bearing chattering/wear.

If you've changed your wheels from OEM to Clevelands... MARK YOUR IPC CORRECTLY so you won't forget this. DON'T simply replace the existing bearing cups with those of the same PN that's stamped on the cup without checking applicability.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby 170C » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:39 pm

Thanks for all the info George. Just to be sure, where would part numbers be on Cleveland or McCaulley wheels? I believe I had looked for those numbers to have been stamped into the exterior of the rims? Quite a number of yrs ago I did replace my wheel bearings with new Timken bearings from a reputable bearing supply house there inTX. Same part # as indicated on Cleveland's site per my IA. First store in FW wouldn't sell them to me due to their going on an aircraft, but a second location didn't ask and had they done so the bearings were to go on my trailer :roll:
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby n2582d » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:51 am

Good info George. One thing I might add is that the Cleveland manual calls for heating the wheel to a max. of 212ºF for 15 minutes prior to pressing the bearings out. On other forums I've seen guys recommending powdercoating these wheels. Personally I'd not do it as the temperature to powdercoat well exceeds 212º F.

I'm in the process of restoring my Cleveland main wheels and Scott tailwheel. Going crazy in the process. What are others, especially those in high corrosive environments, doing to treat their magnesium parts? Years ago when working in N. Carolina I applied a conversion coating to magnesium wheels. This was MilSpec MIL-M-3171 as outlined in paragraph 6-152 of AC43-13B. Here in California I cannot buy chromic acid to make the solution. So I take it to the local plating shop in Fresno. I find it shuttered. Cleveland calls for using MIL-M-3171 or the more environmentally friendly Oxsilan in their maintenance manual. (See PDF attachment.) That's like saying put Heinz on your hamburger. There are a great number of Oxsilan products. The type of Oxsilan is hidden at the end of the Cleveland Technican's Service Guide; Oxsilan MG 0610. $250 + s/h for a 5 gallon pail.

Here's a close-up of one of my wheel halves.
IMG_0623.jpeg
It's interesting to me that the dissimilar metal corrosion doesn't happen under the washer but adjacent to it. I found the same thing happening under the brake disc rim. What is clear from this chart in the General Handbook (AC 65-9A) is that magnesium does not play well with others.
Magnesium.jpg
Click to Enlarge
Normally zinc or cadmium would be the sacrificial metal but it looks to me like if those metals are placed next to magnesium that magnesium will be the sacrificial metal. It is at or near the bottom of the galvanic scale for dissimilar metals. Very unnoble.

A primary reason magnesium is used for aircraft parts is that they corrode easily and thus allow the manufacturers to sell replacement parts at outrageous prices. :twisted: Seriously, I think it's because magnesium weighs about 2/3's the weight of aluminum. I believe most of us with Cleveland's have magnesium wheels as this is what is specified for Cleveland's 40-97A wheels. The '65-'70 C-172 IPC shows that Cessna used these on the 172 from 1965-1970. In 1971 they switched to aluminum wheels. Cleveland's p/n for these is 40-113 which is Cessna's p/n C163001-0104. One reason it's important to know what you have is because they should be torqued to different values; 150 in/lbs. for magnesium and 90 in/lbs. for aluminum.

Frank, to determine if your wheels are aluminum or magnesium you can test them with vinegar. A member on another website that caters to yellow airplanes says that "A=aluminum in Cleveland speak". As our 40-97A wheels and our 30-63A brake calipers are magnesium this is incorrect. Look in the Technician's Service Guide linked to above to find what various Cleveland wheels and brakes are made of. For what it's worth here's a list of the magnesium parts that might be on your aircraft: Cleveland wheels, Cleveland brake calipers, Scott tailwheel hub, O-300 oil sump, accessory case, intake manifolds, and engine mount legs, rudder bar hold down clamps (new ones are plastic) and, if you've "updated" to later cast rudder pedals, which are not plastic, they may be magnesium. Any parts I've overlooked? Don't feel bad if you were unaware of all these parts being magnesium as it appears Continental doesn't either; on pg. 7 of their overhaul manual they say that the sump, and engine mount legs are aluminum. Anyone found these parts to be aluminum? I've only heard of magnesium ones.

Finally, I'll squash one last piece of bad advice from another website. There a guy recommended using stainless steel brake discs. On the surface (no pun intended) it seems like a good idea - less corrosion than a standard steel or chrome disc. Here's what Cleveland thinks of this idea.
Attachments
Cleveland Conversion Coating Magnesium.pdf
Oxsilan
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby ghostflyer » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:54 am

The following information is for entertainment value only. When using magnesium wheels [and aluminium wheels too] it’s best always to use NEW cad plated nuts and bolts and WASHERS also.when we replace a tire and tube the nuts,washers and bolts are also always replaced. Hard ware is so cheap to buy , it’s cheap insurance . To clean a magnesium wheel [to remove paint and corrosion] I would be having it walnut grit blasted clean. I have found powder coating is porous and corrosion will start under the layer. The best so far is a 2 pak poly urethane coating . White if possible to see any cracks developing. The first coat should be a etch primer then a base primer and then final white coat.
If the wheel has done a few runs over the years we will dye penetrated the wheel for cracking .if you have a wheel crack and break you could have a bad day. You would be surprised to see the number of wheels that we check that are over 10 years old that have started to crack some where. Please always torque the nuts also. Over torquing can do so much damage as under torquing will do also.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby n2582d » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:31 pm

gahorn wrote:The Cleveland NUTS, MS21044-N5 have a SPRUCE PN 05-13992 .... which sell for the wonderful price of .... $4.85 EACH. Times six. Equals $29.10 plus tax and shipping. Just for the nuts.

A bit cheaper at Skygeek.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby lowNslow » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:51 pm

I know a lot of classic car buffs have had great success with powder coating magnesium engine parts.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby gahorn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:11 pm

Gary, (or anyone knowledgeable about this) ...what is the matter with using Alodine on either aluminum or magnesium wheels?
Cleveland suggests alodine for aluminum...and I get that... but they suggest Iridite 15 for magnesium...and Google sources (Aviall, etc) claim they are both chromate/chromic-acid conversions for both aluminum and magnesium. Virtually interchangeable and Aviall specifically says so.

I paint my wheels with aluminum-colored/silver lacquer. Enamel will cover/hide cracks and lacquer will more easily display a crack, and it is a safe cover against corrosion.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby n2582d » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:40 pm

Ghostflyer, thanks for the suggestion. What brand of "2 pack poly urethane coating" do you use down there?

Thanks George. I'll try alodine on my one scrap wheel half. I'd read someplace that it is not effective on magnesium. Have to get an Aviall catalog.
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Re: Correct (Wheel bolts) Part Numbers

Postby ghostflyer » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:03 pm

We use either Dulux paints or US Paints. I think Dulux is a Australian brand and US Paints is imported from the USA. The US Paints have a very good UV resistance and do not go chalky over time .

please note.. when called magnesium parts they can be different alloy mixtures and that will be included in Auto parts also . Especially when different roles for that part are required.
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